Phil and Clint discuss an even bigger Big Ten conference (the BIGGEST Ten EVER!), NCAA officials make a bigger joke of themselves (and that’s saying something), bigger scoreboards and more options for your drinking pleasure at the Big House, and trouble at Northwestern.

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Phil Callihan 0:00
You M go blue.com by fans for fans since 1999. Hello, welcome to this edition of the UNM go blue.com podcast. This is Phil Callihan, along with Clint Derringer. And we have a lot going on in college Football a lot impacting the Michigan Wolverines. The big news is the big 10 has expanded again, Oregon and Washington will be joining the crew. So well, Clint, what do you think about that? I mean, we just had USC and UCLA announced they were joining. And now we have two more joining the club.

Clint Derringer 0:43
Yeah, I think it’s, it’s crazy. I mean, not from a very high level in the grand scheme of things. It kind of fits with this sort of inevitable march toward, you know, larger conferences, super conferences, you know, it’s related, of course, to the playoff expanding, sort of in the in the grander context, I think it’s, it fits, but the way that it played out, and the the timeline, and the are they in are they out back and forth of this week is really just been crazy, it’s been tough to you could tell that there must be people that are talking to everybody at the same time, you know, and I get a deal or a conversation over here, the PAC 12 is ready to announce a deal that with with Apple, you know, immediate rights deal, and try to kind of lock down the conference for the PAC 12. And then four or five members jump, you know, three to the big 12, two more to the big 10. And they’re down to four active members starting in the 24 season. So all of that played out, inside of, you know, maybe like 36 or 48 hours, late this week, it was just bananas, the timeline and the scrambling, and trying to keep up with kind of the headlines and what had changed. So like I said, I think we’ve talked about this especially in the offseasons the last few years, that there’s this is kind of you can see the path that is laid out here, obviously driven by ever increasing revenue. And it fits into that that narrative. But man, what a wild week for almost every conference, it has something going on right now. It’s I don’t think that this has come to rest, I think that there will be more headlines in the near future. It’s just it just doesn’t feel stable or balanced at this time. Well, and I think that’s the interesting point is that this kind of just shock the system, not really a surprise that things were changing, but I think shocked how quickly it happened. And it’s not done. Right, I think that we’re all kind of sitting here waiting for the next shoe to drop. And, you know, when you get into the details,

Phil Callihan 3:19
USC and UCLA, we’re coming in as full revenue share partners, you know, you have Oregon Washington coming in with going to be getting $30 million a year, which is, which is not chump change, and it will go up a million dollars a year. But full big 10 members get $60 million. So they’re coming in as as you know, with half a share, right. And still, you know, looking at the long term, they realize that this is where you want to be revenue wise. This also kind of well not kind of nukes, the schedules that were released. You know, we had talked about that with the flex schedules and the protected rivalries. And the big 10 has said that they’re going to reissue scheduled for the 24 and 25 seasons. So hopefully nobody bought their airfares or made any big plans. And again, just incredible. You know, the last time, you know, when we talked about USC and UCLA joining, you know, I said, Well, you have the big 10 going from sea to shining sea. And now you’re basically going to virtually every corner of the country with the exception of SEC territory. So the big 10 is really kind of you know, and I gotta give them credit, you know, I’m not a big fan. You know, I haven’t been a big fan of the management of the big 10 or the leadership, but they really have pulled these deals off. And whereas you would say five or 10 years ago, the SEC was the dominant conference and everybody was kind of chasing the Big 10 has responded, and the SEC still is, has a lot of shine to it. You know, there’s no doubt there, but the big 10 has has made some strategic moves to kind of be one of the big two, right? We can, we can debate which one’s the big one. And I think the big 10 needs more Football national championships to really lay claim. But from a revenue standpoint, and a a geographic footprint stand standpoint, the big 10 is put itself in a really interesting position.

Clint Derringer 5:43
Yeah, and you mentioned it there in that last, that last sentence, I think it depends on which context you’re talking about, when you’re talking about a big conference, or a dominant conference, whether it’s about results, you know, on on the field or across all of the sports, you know, revenue, non revenue, Olympic sports, however you categorize them, you start looking at that way, is one particular metric. But really what is driving this is the revenue sharing model, and the access to resources that it brings, and the relationship with the different media companies, television companies, that drives that. And you’re right, that the big 10 While the SEC was dominating on field success, and still continues to this day, in terms of Football success, the big 10 was able to find a path through, you know, expanding their geographic footprint and acquiring more and more market share in terms of TV revenue, that they kind of forced their way into the conversation at the top. without, without the, you know, without having to try to chase down the SEC in terms of onfield success. So now, the two larger conferences in terms of revenue sharing the SEC, and the big 10 are kind of pulling away from the pack, the other the other conferences, and you can see the strain that that’s causing, it’s it’s not only the PAC 12. So the PAC 12 demise here has kind of a long history, I don’t know it well enough to try to kind of recap it all. But I can tell you, that they got all the way here to the end of their media rights deal, without a good replacement, you know, being negotiated. And that made the member institutions so nervous, that they kind of became ripe for the picking that the decision is at the end of the rainbow here with Oregon. And with Washington, there was a there was a if you stay in the Pac 12. And look at this deal with Apple. It’s short term, you could get out after two years. But it’s going to be about whether this package drives apple plus subscriptions up right there’s kind of a contingency or or a clause there that, yes, you could make a lot of money per institution, but it’s got to drive more subscriptions to to the platform. And if it fails, then you know, you don’t make any money. It’s kind of like a commission model. And the guaranteed model with the big 10, even with half a share was financially equivalent to what they could make, maybe in the Pac 12 deals. So it’s what drives the whole, the whole thing was financial stability. You know, these these large, Athletic Department Budgets, if you start messing around with the main source of revenue, 30 million a year, like you’re saying for half a share in the big 10 60 million a year for these other you know, full member institutions in the New Deal. If you start making that fluctuate, then the hard decisions are going to become real, the four members of the PAC 12 that are still remaining are going to have real issues without a deal in place, you know, the main source of their revenue. Being cut means what for the rest of their athletic department, they’re going to have to figure out something in the real near term here. So these are becoming real world decisions. And that’s it’s not just like a huge college Football game of Risk like we treat it sometimes in the media and as fans but you know, these athletic departments have almost 100% of their annual revenue on the table getting you know snatched away from them is going to create an existential crisis similar to what we saw with the pandemic. So it’s it’s real business and starting to be crunch time for a lot of these institutions. And the members that jumped out of the PAC 12 created an opportunity and the big 10 swooped in just like, just like the big 12, the big 12 added three of the PAC 12 members in the last week, and Colorado was one of the first dominoes to fall in this particular realignment cycle. So really crazy, really crazy. And like I said, it just doesn’t feel to me at all that that it’s stabilized, there are still more questions than answers. Like you mentioned that the schedule, the lot of effort went into creating this scheduling model for the big 10. Clearly, the league office expected at least to get to 2024. Before any of this happened, right. All of this was kind of under the assumption that the PAC 12 would get their stuff together. And that any opportunities to continue expanding, would have been down the road. And the fact that they couldn’t get it done, really, hyper accelerated all of this change into one offseason here in 2023. And now, it’s really feels like we’ve crossed the Rubicon.

Phil Callihan 11:24
So what’s interesting when you jump into the details of the of the way the revenue splits gonna be, right. USC and UCLA are full portions, right. And this is because they were member institutions when the big deal got negotiated, right. So that is it. So they they got in right underneath the wire, right. But what’s interesting is, so Oregon and Washington are gonna get 30 million, but it’s gonna go up a million every year. Right? So no doubt, right. And then the other interesting thing, when you jump into the numbers is, it’s expected to be 60 million, it could be more, depending on ancillary deals. So and then, you know, the current deal runs through 2930. And then then they’re going to be, you know, full participating members. So there’s increased pressure on more changes, right? Because the more of of the budget continues to need to be fed, right? As you add the schools, and they’re expecting this money, the expectations go up, the stakes go up, as you said, it’s, you’re not I love that analogy that, you know, viewing this college Football landscape as a game of Risk, right. But when you look at it, and again, I go back, listen, I’m still salty about Rutgers and Maryland. Okay, I still roll my eyes when I see them on the schedule. But when you see that as the first domino and seeing how this is ending, you know, and I can’t say this, I have to tip my hat. Right, that. And again, as the SEC was dominating on the field, the big 10 was making moves here. And, you know, the next thing is, alright, so you have the SEC kind of geographically landlocked, right. So I think the, you know, Clint, you’ve mentioned this in previous podcasts. Well, okay, so you got the big 10 From sea to shining sea. Just locked up the West Coast, huh? You kind of look to the ACC and wonder, you know, first where does this put Notre Dame as one of the big revenue, quote unquote, independents kind of aligned with the ACC Football wise, right. And, and the reason I say that is, you know, if you the real nugget in this deal for me is Oregon, right? With Oregon bill being aligned so tightly with Nike, you would have believed that wherever they ended up means a lot more than just than the sum of its parts, right. It’s, it makes sense for them to come make sense. Partnership wise, it makes sense brand wise. So where does that leave Notre Dame in all this because if the SEC is surrounded, okay, Notre Dame is completely engulfed, okay, I mean, they’re, they’re completely encircled. So what’s going to what’s it going to mean for them long term? And then, you know, if, if we’re looking at this as a game of Risk, you know, how far can the big 10 reach down into ACC territory All right. And, you know, territory, typically dominated by the SEC team wise. It really puts the ACC schools in an interesting position to negotiate with both conferences. And I’m, I’m kind of counting counting down till the ACC implodes.

Clint Derringer 15:22
Yeah, I think there’s the main difference to my understanding, again, which is, I’m not an expert by any means. But I do try to keep track of this thing. The ACC television deal goes through 2036. And they have granted rights agreement, that would have a huge buyout clause, and also additional rights, that an institution that leaves the ACC, would still be forking over to the conference. So this is very similar, at least the way I kind of internalize it here. Like when there’s a big coach, a high profile, coach, that modes reminds me a lot of when rich Rodriguez went from West Virginia to Michigan, he had a buyout clause in West Virginia, and he was kind of looking at Michigan to try to help him either pay that buyout or, you know, help him win in court. So they didn’t have to pay that buyout, right now that ACC institutions have something like that. So Florida State has been outwardly very verbal, in, in, in the media publicly, and, you know, behind closed doors, apparently, that they’re not happy with the revenue structure of the ACC, and this TV deals not adequate for them through 2036. But they, they’re stuck. They, they know that nobody’s gonna pay, I think $120 million, just to break them free from from this deal that they’ve got with the ACC. So that, to me, is really the next puzzle that that gets solved, either we get closer to 2036. Right. So the TV deal will be renegotiated and get opened back up sometime in a couple of years. That’s when those institutions will feel like they can start making a deal elsewhere to find out if they could jump. So we’re probably two years away from that, whereas just a normal part of the cycle and the negotiating timeline, the ACC will start jumping. But if it wasn’t for this grant of rights deal that really is, seems to be pretty ironclad and keeping the institutions stuck where they are, I think the ACC, very well could have been going through a very similar kind of open market, kind of a flea market phase that the PAC 12 did here. And so the ACC lawyers that put that grant of rights agreement in place right now are the main thread that’s holding the ACC together. And then we will see whether the ACC tries to become a fourth kind of leg on the stool with the SEC big 10. And the big 12, I would say is not an equivalent in onfield success or revenue sharing. But they do have a large number of member institutions, at least to the point that they have to be part of the conversation. But we’ll see three large conferences is kind of tough. I don’t see the ACC splitting up and joining the other three conferences. Either they become the fourth leg of the stool, or I think there’s probably everything opens back up and we start we continue gravitating towards two very large super conferences, anchored in the Big Ten’s original footprint and the SE C’s original footprint. So the battle will be over the ACC institutions and how that splits. And I don’t think that happens until somebody figures out how to get out from under that grant of rights agreement or time just the clock just runs out on that agreement, and then it’s another free for all.

Phil Callihan 19:25
Well, what’s interesting about that, and again, great explanation. Great points. When you look at the estimated ramp up for revenue, okay. So, right now, the estimate for the big 10 full share is just under 60 million per team. By 2029. It’s expected to be almost $95 million per team, right? The payout for SEC teams is estimated to be $105 million by 2029, okay, the ACC estimate 2029 is $55 million again, not chump change. But when you start looking at, you know that number, I can see someone, okay? In these TV offices saying, you know, $100 million is a lot if we want to bust somebody out. But when you look at it long term, I could see the Big 10 in the SEC, and their respective TV partners trying to work something out, right. And again, it’s just, you know, stay tuned, it may not happen this year. But it’s definitely one of the offseason risk moves that we need to see because, and the other interesting thing is, if these revenues continue to climb, the way they’re estimated, I, I think that’s very much speculative at this point, with the way streaming is impacting, I think there’s, there’s going to be only more pressure on, you know, as people continue to cut the cord and leave cable providers. You know, there’s this is a chalkboard that’s going to be erased and rewritten a few times. But the ACC is definitely a point of interest. And, again, those lawyers made a really good deal. They put some really good clauses in it. But when there’s this much money sloshing around, things happen, and it’ll definitely be interesting to see it.

Clint Derringer 21:37
And, again, I I said it correctly, but I think I kind of implied incorrectly, that it’s going to be a couple of years that that deal for the ACC goes to the 2036. It’s a 20 year deal. And if I think the ACC member institutions feel stuck, seeing the huge shares go up for everybody else, and the way that they’re sharing it, across the teams in the conference. If the major you know, if FSU, for example, finds a way to negotiate a buyout and get out of that. What then happens to the remaining to the remaining institution? So that’s what I was kind of implying that it’s going to take a couple years. But yeah, that TV deal doesn’t run out in 2026. It runs out in 2036. And that long term commitment to the current deal, I think, is what makes the ACC schools a little itchy. So and just to be clear, right? Like, so there’s big numbers sloshing around, right.

Phil Callihan 22:48
Apparently, Florida State tried to negotiate or is in the midst of negotiating a $300 million buyout, okay, with all the different penalties and things. So lots of money. And, you know, in a, in a perfect world, right, or a world where this happens, you have to imagine that, if they’re paying 300 million, they already have an idea. A posting, shall we say, or written on a napkin? How much money they’re gonna make. So, again, definitely stay tuned. Definitely interesting times to be a college Football fan. And, you know, if you’re a big fan of tradition, you may not, you know, be super excited about this. But change is coming, and it’s not slowing down. So we just need to stay tuned. And thankfully, I’m really glad that the big 10 is in the position. It’s in rather than your breath.

Clint Derringer 24:04
the the one, at least right now, underlying comforting thing is that the, the games and the member school, the teams aren’t folding, right? The institutions aren’t folding to Football programs still exist, the games are still there to be played. So for fans, it’s going to feel slightly different. Right? It’s, the changes are going to feel somewhat strange over time, but in terms of TV or going to Ann Arbor on a Saturday, you know, the games there. So as long as there’s that, then then I think the riots will, you know, get to be held at bay, but who knows, right? Who knows what it turns into, on a national scale, you know, for for schools were pinched financially. And like you said, I’m glad that our favorite team, our favorite schools member, the Big 10, which happens to be one of the big dogs right now. So that’s fortunate for us. But hope, hopefully, when this all comes to settle, it’s going to be a lot different than what we’re used to for sure. But let’s hope that we can still find what makes games Saturdays great, and the whole Football season in the fall great.

Phil Callihan 25:32
So what I hate about this, is as I hate all things, Notre Dame, as the great Bo Schembechler once said To hell with Notre Dame, is this puts them in an amazing position. Okay, either to stay quasi independent and make a bajillion dollars. Or, I can think of nothing that would put a bigger dagger in the heart of the big 10 than to if they were to end up aligning with sec. And again, just more more to follow, you can definitely see that big numbers are going to be flowing around and we’ll have to see how this ACC deal if it’s able to maintain itself moving forward. So on to more specific Michigan news. Apparently, Coach Harbaugh is going to be sitting out the first four games of the year a suspension with our favorite folks from the NCAA. You know, Clint, I really hate the NCAA sometimes. And, you know, we’ve talked in the past, that Harbaugh part of his nature, you know, early in his Michigan tenure, he kind of enjoyed showing up referees, and I think in various times that came back to bite us. And he got better on that, right. And he also went through a phase where he was calling out the NCAA, and not that they don’t deserve to be called out. But, you know, as I always say, you know, if you jump up in the crosshairs, don’t be surprised if somebody pulls the trigger. And here we have that. Coach, Harbaugh will be suspended for first four games of the season four relatively minor NCAA violations. But apparently, it’s not the violation. It’s the legit dishonesty in that he exhibited during the investigation. So what are your thoughts on are on this situation coming up?

Clint Derringer 27:50
Well, my feelings about the actual content haven’t changed since we talked about it before, when that this was, it’s probably about 18 months ago or so that that this first hit the radar, and we talked about it. Most of this stems from violations that occurred during the during the pandemic, when there were no contact time periods. You know, the Michigan program was in contact with recruits. And in terms of breaking rules, right, you and I think kind of came to, you know, kind of a de facto agreement that neither one of us is happy when when the program is breaking rules, you know, in the grand scheme of things. Again, these were even in the NCAA terms, these were relatively minor infractions. And I wished that they weren’t there. I hate the distraction that they become, but in the grand scheme of things that are much worse. You know, there are many worse things happening in the world of college football. In terms of dishonesty during the investigation, it seems to boil down to whether Harbaugh cooperated fully or recalled any other particular infraction some of this stems around from, you know, receipts related to providing lunch or buying, buying a burger for potentially it’s tough to sort out which detail fits into which part of the whole thing. But the NCAA to me is trying to seize on an opportunity to amidst all of this other chaos, that really is above and beyond their troll trying to or that they that they do impose some sort of consequence when And when they get a high level, a high profile coach in their crosshairs, especially, like you said, one that has, you know, thumbed his nose at the NCAA. In the past, you know, you’re more than once. So, to me, it seems like more of a credibility grab for the NCAA than it is about the seriousness of what Harbaugh and Michigan may have done. But that’s not to excuse, of course, the you know, what actually occurred, it’s just this is now three years old, at a minimum, and the world, the world was such a terrible place three years ago, for us to be re litigating this in, in the court of public opinion, seems, you know, somewhat, you know, somewhat useless to me. Again, there’s a little bit of humor in there, probably, if this was about, you know, Ohio State or some other institution and the NCC or the SEC, maybe, maybe I would sound differently. But this is, to me, this is more of a naked credibility. Boost, that the NCAA is trying to show that, that their paper badge still still mean something, and that that ship has sailed for me that the NCAA seated their authority, in all matters related to Football a long, long time ago. And they need to figure out a way to gracefully exit, you know, to the backstage and figure this out. And there’s got to be some other type of governing body, governing body in the sport of football, because the NCAA is just woefully inadequate to reallyact as a rules enforcement authority in what they’re trying to do with Michigan here.

Phil Callihan 32:05
I always like to use traffic analogies, right? You know, like,hey, and again, it’s always bad to break the rules, right? But it’s one thing if you’re five miles over the speed limit, and 100 miles over the speed limit. This isn’t even a five mile and five mile an hour over the speed limit thing. This is, ooh, your tags are expired. And I mean, it’s so nitpicky, right? And, again, yes, as you said, we’re definitely on the Homer side of the equation here. But, you know, I just I shake my head, this is, you know, this is what you’re going after, this is what you’re doing. And I definitely feel like this is a slap at Harbaugh. You know, Harbaugh has frequently, less frequently in recent years, but has never been shy and criticizing the NCAA on when it falls short, and it lives falling short. You know, it perpetually exists in a falling short situation, as you said, it’s it. It is a failed state. Okay. It’s just horrible. So, you know, it’s unfortunate that this is going to mar the beginning of the season of what we hope to be such an amazing season. But I will tell you, it’s a season where that holds so much promise, but I tell you, you know that Harbaugh is going to use this as motivation. Okay. And, you know, the good news in this is that it’s going to give other coaches on the staff a chance to take a greater role on game day, it’s going to provide fuel for the fire for the team, you know that Harbaugh will be talking about this, you know, they will be talking about this. You know, not to make light of the situation. But, Clint, I think you or I could show up on game day and handle these duties against these four teams. Again, it’s not saying the head coach is not important, but the bulk of the work is done, you know, before the game and these games will not be stern tests. Okay. You know, again, it’ll be a chance for other other coaches and I don’t believe the the final decision has been made on exactly who is going to hold the reins or, you know, Michigan has super qualified people on staff who will will take advantage of this opportunity. Michigan will be fine, and Harbaugh will come back with even more fire in his belly with even more enthusiasm unknown to mankind. And let’s be clear, even more hate and disdain for the NCAA than he are already had. So yeah,

Clint Derringer 35:01
The other part of this that is strange is the the sanction is the four game suspension. Again, this is all kind of leaked information. We don’t know this officially yet. But it’s likely, you know, based on what we’ve seen in the past with similar sanctions that Harbaugh was suspended, like you said, just on game day, which means that he’ll be coaching, you know, the week of preparation where the bulk of the work happens, like you said, and even that, you know, even if, even if we believed in the NCAA as a governing body, or some type of rules authority, that it’s, it’s a, it’s a paper tiger in terms of sanctions. Again, this is something that is only for show to show that you did something. But that really, tangibly has very little impact on as a punishment, you know, which, again, I’m glad that they’re not over punishing a small cry, for sure. But to even have this as an option, because it had been negotiated in the past with other coaches that had been suspended for various reasons, you know, just again, shows to me that this is much more about showing in the in the court of public opinion, that you did something which is just more fresh, it’s more frustrating than nothing to try to make it a song and dance, and using smoke and mirrors to make it look like you did something wrong. And in reality, it’s, you know, it’s nothing.

Phil Callihan 36:53
Now, I don’t think Coach Harbaugh would do this. Okay. But I think it would be hilarious. If Michigan has had, shall we say, celebrity captains for games, you know, people will come out for the coin toss. It would be hilarious. If Michigan and Harbaugh use this as an opportunity to raise the profile. Right? Like, could you imagine if Tom Brady were to come back and be the honorary coach or Charles Woodson, were to come back and be honorary coach? You know, part of me hopes that, okay, I don’t believe they would do this. I don’t think Michigan would do this. But I would i Half of me would love to see Harbaugh tweak the NCAA and turn this into something that raises the profile of the program even higher, right. And I I would not put it past him, I would not put it past him that it has not crossed his mind to do something like that. You know, the other thing that I thought was that, you know, I could see the headline, Harbaugh suspended Harbaugh coaches, right like to Jay for to have Jay Harbaugh be the the interim coach. And again, for no other reason, just to tweak the NCAA. You know, and and now, the idea of a celebrity coach or something like that would would be a distraction that we probably don’t need. But again, it it does, you know, Tom Brady has time on his hands. Charles Woodson has time on his hands. I, like I said it, and in we talked about, you know, the Risk Board of college Football expansion and my mind, like, I would love for that to happen. And and, you know, you don’t want to provoke the NCAA anymore. But I, you know, I, I, I’m sure that he’s thought of something like that. Having, knowing how his mind works, I’m, I’m pretty sure it’s crossed his mind. Probably not the best, probably not the best idea. But you know,

Clint Derringer 39:05
For entertainment value, I definitely hear Yeah, I would imagine that he, his main focus is to minimize the distraction, like you, you kind of alluded to putting his particular battle with, with the NCAA as an institution in front of four games, at all is probably already bad enough. I would imagine he would like this to just get through that phase of the season and try to get back. You know, everybody’s focused on the task at hand. Starting in week five and forward. It’s got to be his main focus now is to just move past it. And I would say that’s, that’s probably the advice that he was getting. When they went into negotiations to try to get this resolved. Let’s let’s get this out for hanging over what should be a very special season? And, and move on here?

Phil Callihan 40:06
Now what I wonder is, you know, when I first heard this, I’m like, well, gives him more time to cut his grass. Right. But in all seriousness, can you imagine what it’s going to be like him? Like for him to be watching these games and not be there? I mean, that’s I, that would be a story. I wonder, I, you know, I would imagine he might sit and watch the game with his dad. But again, I can just like I said, he’s gonna come back fired up. And definitely, you know, you can’t do an eye roll on a podcast, but just understand eye rolling all through the discussions on this. It’s just, you know, you know, even you know, when we go to ball games, you bump into people who worked for the NCAA. And it is, it’s the hardest thing to do to just not just, you gotta be kidding. I mean, you got to be respectful. You got to be nice, but it’s like, okay, all right, then. Some other potential things changing that may impact the fan experience at Michigan Stadium. You know, in addition to the wonderful new scoreboards, which I have to say, when they first announced that they were increasing the size of the scoreboards, you know, I was like, okay, bigger, I hope they have more stats, we finally got to see some of the video of and you know, it was really nice. They were showing clips of the Michigan, Ohio State Games, that was great. So again, going to be all inspiring, can’t wait for that. But another change that’s happening is in the state of Michigan, it appears that alcohol sales will be coming to stadiums near us. No definitive word on Michigan Stadium yet or not. But you know, I always use the analogy of does it mean more money for the university? Yes, no. If it’s yes, then it’s coming. So little bit of cynicism there. But so Clint, what do you think about about those potete that potential change coming?

Clint Derringer 42:17
I think it comes with potential risks and problems, of course. But these are risks and problems that are, you know, handled and mitigated at other events locally, other college venues have been doing this without any major incident, to my knowledge. So it’s, it’s something that can be managed, but it’ll be additional headache and risk to deal with. In terms of fan experience, right? It’s, I don’t know how much different it will be, you know, I don’t think that it’s a, it’s, it’s no secret that, you know, there’s a large portion of the 100 plus 1000 people that are walking in that had been drinking alcohol, you know, for a long time before the game, right. And the filters that are in place to stop additional alcoholic coming in with some of those patrons are those filters are pretty, pretty loose. So people are already, you know, intoxicated, before, during and after the game. So I don’t know how much it’s going to feel different, certainly, to some degree, but I don’t think it’s going to be like a light switch, you know, from off to on, I think it’ll probably be a little bit more visible of a problem, definitely something that you’re going to want to be cognizant of in terms of travel and preparation, but again, this is just a move from, you know, a volume diet, like, you know, from six to seven, or from six to eight. The risks and problems are already there, they probably just get a little bit greater in magnitude, if I had to guess.

Phil Callihan 44:12
So I don’t like this. Okay. When I think back to the negative experiences I’ve had at Michigan Stadium, other stadiums, other pro stadiums 99% of the problems have been because people have been drunk. And I know, it’s, you know, it’s there. You know, it’s always a few bad actors, right. The thing that I enjoyed about Michigan games, is that yes, people there are definitely people who will come in sloshed, right. But usually by halftime, they’ve, you know, the, the edges off a little bit, right. And if they’re, if they’re really there to drink, that’s when they’re going to leave and go back to the tailgate. Okay. So you know, And we know this right that there’s been problems with people coming in drunk. I mean, there’s a reason that they announced on the scoreboard if you’re having problems in your section, right, text this number, and that was before you were continuing to feel like, okay. Even in my seats, okay, I’ve had some really negative. And when I say even in my seats, I mean, I’m really down low. And incident happened probably about, say, around 10 years ago, and, and I say 10 years ago, because I don’t sit in my seats that often, you know, I have the privilege of being in the press box for most games now. But, you know, my seats are in the second row, we have a cop right there. Okay. I had, you know, and I’ve said this told the story before, our seats are in the second row, it’s row B. Okay. So whenever you get new people in the stadium who think they’re in row two, they come down and sit in their seats, right? So we had some drunken idiots come down, you know, ask them to move, they got belligerent they move they were only two rows behind us, okay, because it goes a b One, two, right. And they were assholes. Okay, there’s another way to put it. So much so that the cop who sits in our section, who always looks up, looked up and said, Hey, do I need to do something? And I’m just like, just let it go. Right. And, you know, they, you know, they sobered up and left early. So that was nice. But again, I I know, this is going to happen, if not this year, if not already. You know, it’s it’s an as you said, there, there are filters in place. You know, I think back to, you know, their situations, Lions games were, before they moved over to Ford Field, they used to have sections that were alcohol free, because they had so many problems with people, right, where, you know, people didn’t want to bring their kids. So again, I know, it’s, you know, I know their controls in place. I have no doubt it’s coming. If it’s if it’s not already happening, and great. You know, you know, again, it’ll enhance some people’s game experience. And hopefully, the problems can be minimized. But yeah, I’m, I’m not, not looking forward to it. But, you know, again, it is what it is. And just like with expansion, where, you know, I say changes coming, this is one of the changes that’s coming. And it’s, it’s, it’s kind of pointless to, you know, it’s like, I don’t want to be the guy yelling at kids to get off my lawn. But that’s what I feel like right here.

Clint Derringer 47:41
Yeah. I wonder if the, in terms of fan experience, if there’s more, you know, just more more congestion, you know, if there are people that normally never went to the concession stands on the concourse, you know, maybe that increased traffic feels a little bit different would be another negative. But we’ll see. I think it’s it there, there is a risk that it it has a negative effect on the overall experience. But that that risk wasn’t zero before. So let’s hope that it comes with with enough management and just that, that it doesn’t become, you know, untenable, and that whatever the benefits are for the athletic department. Certainly hope they’re worth it, you know, because the, it is going to create more frequency or greater magnitude of problems. So we’ll see. Hopefully, they can keep it contained. Another story impacting big 10 Football, the northwestern hazing situation. And

Phil Callihan 48:49
I have to say, I’m surprised and I’m not surprised, okay. Northwestern has had such a sterling reputation of, if not success on the field, success off the field, right, high academics. You know, I always used to joke that the Big 10 keeps Northwestern in the conference to raise the grade point of, you know, Nebraska and Rutgers and other places. But it’s not a joke, right. And again, this is a whole nother. So you’re going to fire the coach, I believe all the coaches in place all the other coaches, and you kind of roll your eyes like wait a minute, wait a minute. Okay. So I understand that the head coach is responsible, right? It’s kind of like the captain of a ship. And yet, so they do an investigation. And, you know, in typical, very, you know, it wasn’t NCAA, right, but kind of like the NCAA. Well, bad stuff happened. So we’re going to spend, we’re going to say suspends you in the middle of the summer, right? For two weeks. And you look and go, I mean, on the outside, I go, well, it couldn’t have been that bad because that kind of suspension really isn’t a suspension, right? And then some more things come out some more media attention. And then, you know, they, they fire him. Northwestern comes out of this just looking bad, right? Like bad in the investigation bad in the way they do. They handled it bad in the reaction. And I think it’s only gonna get worse. Right. I mean, lawsuits are coming, lawsuits are already in place. And it, it’s just, it again, I just I just shake my head at the whole things. And listen, I don’t want to minimize hazing. At All right. But what kind of investigation did you do? And then oh, well, now that people are paying attention, it’s just it’s just a really puzzling situation for me.

Clint Derringer 51:04
Yeah, I think the at the top line, the takeaway is that nobody, no program, no person, no coach, no administrator is immune to this to having this as a problem, you know, we learned this, you know, the very hard way personally, right, that our program had these same, you know, moral shortcomings and lack of fortitude to actually correct the problems in a reasonable time and people got hurt. And this is a totally different scenario, in terms of the specifics with hazing, and, and what you’re doing to incoming freshmen, or what you’re doing to people, players that are, you know, performing or not performing on the field. But outside of the specifics, in terms of the grit, you know, the the macro level, it’s the same problem, where it’s tolerated. And people look the other way, to the point that it’s enabled and becomes a part of your programs culture. And that is an issue. The cover up certainly is as bad as the crime in these cases, for sure. And I think, what you’re talking about with Northwestern as the institution, and they hire a third party firm to do an investigation, and then their decision is a two week suspension in July. For Pat Fitzgerald what that investigation found was enough plausible deniability that they thought they could get away with that, that even if someone were to read the report of the specifics of what was happening with these hazing incidents, and some of the abuse, that at least they could say, you know, the head coach was, should have known and should have put a stop to it and didn’t. So we punished him for that. And hopefully, this will change. But two week suspension in the middle of July, before campaign even started, makes me wonder whether this practice would have even changed, you know, I don’t even know, you know, if this if that were allowed to have been stayed in place, you know, if this didn’t get out, and become a bigger media story to the point that more serious action was taken, whether it was a longer suspension or with firing, Fitzgerald was the right thing. I think that’s, it’s correct, personally, but, you know, two weeks was definitely not enough. Right. So that is the part of it that still kind of eats at me is that the path that they chose, as an institution, I wonder if it would have even changed, you know, now with, you know, removal of the head coach, who seemed like, you know, one of the longest tenured, I think only Kirk ferentz, had a longer tenure at Iowa than Pat Fitzgerald, at Northwestern, right, this is a very serious step and to just been sent, I do have some confidence that there will be changes in that this won’t be you know, part of the program culture anymore, but that that’s the part still kind of will bother me continually is that was a two week suspension. Just another example of this being enabled and the same culture, the same culture Well, problems in this hazy may have changed shape slightly, but probably would have continued into the 2023 season. And that is, that’s the part of it that’s just makes me shake my head the most.

Phil Callihan 55:15
So to that again. So, it might have been different for me if it wasn’t somebody like Pat Fitzgerald, right? Who was the poster guy for Northwestern Football? Played their coach there. Right? So you question how long was this going on? And oh, we did an investigation. And what we found was so bad. We’re gonna give you a two week suspension. I mean, a two week vacation, right? Slash suspension. And that’s, that’s my, you know, sarcasm there. Right. But like you said, so this was going on. Okay. And let’s be clear. Something happened, okay. He knew about it. Either. He knew about it when he was coaching. Or he knew about it when he was playing, or he started it. I mean, again, let’s let’s, let’s step back here, right? This isn’t somebody, you know, this isn’t somebody who just got hired from had no history with the institution. Right. Okay. So what we found out was so bad, we’re going to do a two week suspension, which is a joke, right? And like you said, it may have continued going on. And then it was, well, what we found was so bad. We need to fire the head coach. Oh, yeah. And the position coaches, who you and I both know, spend the bulk of the time with the players, right. Who had to be aware of this? Or if they weren’t aware of it were morons, or looked, you know, took a blind eye to it? They’re fine. Right? I again, I just I, yeah. Northwestern just, you know, and I understand it’s the middle of the summer, and who you’re gonna get to coach and all that. And maybe, you know, in the offseason, they’re going to clean house again, I my guess is that’s probably going to happen, right? I can’t see this staff continuing to stay intact moving forward. But it’s just, again, we talked about the clown show, with the NCAA, Northwestern, you know, has their own clown show going on. And, unfortunately, it appears that, as you said, it became enough of the culture that people were definitely impacted, definitely hurt. And, again, this is Northwestern, right, supposed to be, you know, as clear as the driven snow. And, you know, again, you know, and, Clint, we’ve talked about this, you know, we’ve talked about, you know, the the bad situation at Penn State, the bad situation with at Michigan State with with things being overlooked, you know, the the Nasr situation. And again, things that happen at Michigan that were bad, okay, we’re not ignoring it. And, and I remember when, you know, those three things happened, I said, Well, you know, there’s no way it’s only the big 10. And I’m not saying it to give the big 10 of pass, I’m saying how prevalent is this? Okay, and how much? How much worse? Is it? How many bad things have are happening or have happened that we haven’t heard about? And that’s kind of what I feel about this is that I think, you know, Northwestern was more than ready just to, you know, give a minor slap on the hand and move on. And, again, not a good look.

Clint Derringer 58:48
Yeah, I agree.

Phil Callihan 58:49
So all right. Well, again, it’s nice to kind of clear the decks on this so we can start talking about Michigan Football. You know, the team is started camp, we’re going to have much better things and much more exciting things on the field to talk about soon. So Clint, do you have any final words for today?

Clint Derringer 59:13
Now it’s time to start putting together the game by game preview. I know, our big preseason extravaganza, typically in August is we kind of talked about each game on the schedule, what we think is going to happen, what we think from the whole season narrative, what it’s going to turn into, I think that’s going to be an exciting conversation, obviously, with the expectations we have for this season. And, you know, looking forward to starting to, you know, finish some of the work that was started here with kind of looking at the analytics, what the specific matchups are. You know, how things are going to play out with Harbaugh suspension early in the season and Michigan’s kind of soft nonconference schedule again. So yeah, it’s going to be It’s nice to start digging back into Football specific content and and more numbers and to be able to talk about that here in a few weeks. Absolutely. I’m so looking forward to talking about projecting the actual season we’ve, again, it’s great to have offseason, offseason things to talk about but really excited for this upcoming season.

Phil and Clint discuss changes ahead for Big Ten Football. Topics include Big Ten expansion, division re-alignment, rule changes, changes we’d make if we were football czars, and the current wild west state of NIL.

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Podcast Transcript

Phil Callihan 0:00
Today we’re going to talk about some of the big changes that will be impacting college Football this season. And next season. So Clint, first thing is up. The NCAA has changed rules to impact when the clock runs, you know, after first downs, so how do you feel about that as a fan, and as somebody who spends a lot of time thinking about strategy and the nature of the game?

Clint Derringer 0:47
Yeah, there’s two pieces, I would say to this one, both of which I don’t particularly like, the first, the first thing is that, I think it makes it less likely that you get, you know, exciting comeback drives, at the end of games, I think, just plain and simple, because the clock will continue running, it’ll be harder to do, which means it’ll happen less frequently. And I think that that’s bad. As you know, it’s just a fan watching two random teams that I don’t have any emotional investment in that last opportunity for something exciting at the end of the game. So that’s one particular bad thing, that the kind of the, below the surface, part that I don’t like is that, at least superficially, this is to shorten the length of the game, right, the games are starting to really stretch, you know, three, three and a half, four hours long. Especially for fans in the seats, or other, you know, trying to compete with shorter attention spans in this the attention economy, there’s a movement to kind of shorten the length of these sporting events, we’ve seen, you know, big changes, obviously, with, with baseball with Major League Baseball, instituting a pitch clock, either to positive results. So to do that, on the surface, I think is is fine to try to shorten the length of the event, the length of the broadcast, or the length of the event for the people in the stands. But to do it by changing the game. Rather than taking away the ridiculous amount of commercial breaks, or the number of commercial breaks. During a game, I know you and I for sitting, sitting there watching a Michigan game. And there’s a touchdown Extra Point, they go to a commercial guy with the red hat comes out on the field, they come back kickoff happens, guy with the red hat comes out after the kickoff, it drives, it drives me crazy when they sandwich their you know, the kickoff between commercial breaks. And that’s obviously what’s stretching these events in real time. The amount of play from whistle, the whistle has been the same for decades, right? The reason that it’s stretching is because of all of the other, you know, advertising and other content that’s being stuffed into, into the game. So that’s really the problem. And removing that, obviously, wood wood threatened some revenue for TV interests. So that’s really what they’re covering up. So to say that you want to shorten the length of the event, you should attack the part that is not not part of the actual gameplay, in my opinion. So I’m not a big fan. For those two reasons.

Phil Callihan 3:38
Clint, you make a great point. We have been going to games for a long time. And the in stadium experience is incredibly negatively impacted by those stoppages in play. And I remember, you know, I was sitting in the seats years ago, when the Red Hat thing started. And, you know, one of the people sitting with me brought like their kid, and they’re like, Who’s the person in the Red Hat? Why does everybody boom, and I’m like, well, you’re gonna learn, you’re gonna learn, right? And, you know, my problem with it is, okay, they’re dressing this up as well. We need to shorten these games because we’re adding more games and we need to take gameplay away or game time away from athletes and hopefully this will lower injuries and lower the wear and tear on them. And listen, like you said, this is all about impacting the length of the broadcast, not the you know, the appeal to higher angels, right. So, the issue that I have is, like you said, okay, and yes, you know, the clock will stop The final two minutes of each half, but you’re going to be sprinting toward that two minutes now, right? The game is going to fly. And I think what you’re going to see, you know, another impact of this is, since the clock is not going to stop, I think you’re going to see teams, calling plays quicker. Okay? And that’s great, right? More action is good. But again, like you said, nobody’s going to complain about more Football, everyone complains about when you’re sitting in the stadium, and you have the stoppages for, for these ads to run. And, you know, Clint, you mentioned the changes in baseball. You know, I love baseball, you know, big fan, I was seriously concerned how it was going to impact games, right, with these new rules on the baseball side, and gotta say, sitting in the stadium, it actually made the game a lot more enjoyable, because they limited the time between innings. So the game actually just pops, right, it’s a lot more like watching, you know, a lower level baseball game where you didn’t have time for all these ads, and all this, all this nonsense. So it’ll be interesting to see how this impacts the product and the field, but I don’t like it. Okay. And, you know, the other thing that’s weird is, okay, so the rule change was approved. And it’ll be this year, you know, this isn’t something for 24, this is for the 23 season, will allow the clock to run after first downs and all division except Division three. So that’s just bizarre, okay. Because, you know, some of the lower divisions have the extended playoffs where you have all the extra games played. So I think it’s a bizarre thing. And again, I think that it’s going to impact the game. You know, I wonder how it’s going to impact the amount of running place that teams call and not not because the passing play is going to, you know, not because it’s not going to stop o’clock, but it’s just, I wonder if you’re going to see multiple plays called at once so that, you know, you’re not losing that time of having the play run in and guys running around. So it’s gonna be interesting to see. And again, I’m not, I’m not a fan. You know, you know, another rule that they’re bringing in is that they’re not going to allow teams to call multiple timeouts. So, you know, I think primarily, that’s going to impact, you know, the icing, the kicker thing. And then also, they’re changing the way penalties are called on the last play of a quarter where, instead of getting on untimed, down, it will just be rolled over to to the next one. So in the first and third quarter, it’ll just roll over to the second or the fourth quarter. So again, it’s, you know, they’re saying this is going to shorten the game, 70 minutes, it’s going to take eight plays away. But you know, and they’ll say, it’s not about shortening the game time, it’s more about keeping the game moving, while reducing the number of plays. And, again, it’s like, you know, that’s a contradiction, right? We, you know, we want more plays, we, you know, so it’s just, it’s just bizarre. I also wonder what extra ads we’re gonna see on screen while this is happening.

Clint Derringer 8:29
Yeah, I agree that that’s been finding ways to increase revenue on screen, while the while the game is still going has been has been a movement for the last, you know, 10 years or so. Once the technology existed to kind of superimpose all the images onto the field, it’s only going to increase but it’s a small thing. They said seven or eight minutes real time minutes, and seven or eight plays per game is what the benefit of that, you know, to have seven or eight minutes kind of shortened. Is is miniscule, I think, except that you’re taking it away from from some of the more high leverage situations. At the end of the game, like I said, so. We know we’ve seen obviously, many, many Football games boiled down to a handful of plays and high leverage situations. So now that’s where you’re reducing the number of plays. So I think just as a as a fan, again, when I’m when I’m watching a game that is not that I’m not emotionally invested in one of the teams. I don’t think it makes a lot of sense to take away those high leverage plays when you know, especially when you have a close game, I think trying to come from behind and getting the benefit of those. So it’s, it’s fine. It’s not a it’s not the end of the world, but I think it’s misapplied. And really for If they wanted to make an impact that was really tangible, I think reducing the real time of the the overall event, you could really make some gains and improve the sport and improve the product on the field and improve the experience for people at home. And for people in the stadium at the same time, if they could find a way to reduce the overall event time as somebody who’s got three younger kids, you know, my oldest is only nine, you know, and we haven’t been to a game together at the stadium. Because my youngest just turned six. And there’s, there’s no way that I can keep that I can keep all three of them engaged for for four hours, you know, crammed in, like, like sardines at the big house. Right? My oldest would certainly be capable, but my youngest wouldn’t. So either start splitting them up and bringing them one at a time or whatever. But you’re we’re reducing the opportunities for families like mine and other people right to to be able to try to actually enjoy the experience. And we’ve come down Arbor and enjoy the game day atmosphere, and, you know, just pass on buying tickets. So this is something that is impacting people when they’re deciding how to consume the games. So I think it’ll get addressed at some point. But hopefully, it’s it’s a more positive and impactful decision than than what we’re talking about. Not.

Phil Callihan 11:32
We bemoan how the in stadium experience has changed. And despite, you know, big scoreboards, and rock music, and all kinds of things, and I know, I sound like a cranky old man yelling at kids to get off my lawn. But the point is that, how are you going to replenish your next generation of fans, if you don’t make the in stadium experience better? And I realized that a lot of those things that I just said, I don’t really care about, like the DJ, and the big screens and everything is a opportunity or is a shot at appealing to to the next generation. But primarily, it’s gotta be about the game. Okay, you can add all the bells and whistles. And, you know, I, you know, speaking of baseball, again, you know, if I think about Comerica Park down in Detroit, and it’s like, Oh, they got a Ferris wheel? That’s great. Great, not really great, right? I mean, it’s, it’s great that, you know, and, you know, they have the merry go round. But ideally, it’s a, it’s a plus, it’s not the attractor, right? And the game has to be the thing that that attracts people. And I think specially in college Football, you know, you have limited touchpoints, right, you have limited home games. And if they’re going to continue to fill that large stadium, at some point, as, as later generate, or the previous generation start to decide not to go to games or not be able to go to games. It’s how you’re going to attract and engage younger, younger people, even, you know, even the students, like, when I was a student at Michigan, one of the big things I was excited about graduating was having opportunity to get season tickets, right. And you just wonder if that in stadium experience as creating the same kind of lifelong ties, that people are going to continue to want to fill that stadium. And you know, Clint, you mentioned your kids, right. So, you know, I’m fairly certain they have been raised around Michigan Football, you know, you talk about how you watch games with your kids and discuss it. So on one hand, you know, they have to be kind of chomping at the bit to go to a game. But on the other hand, you also know you don’t want it to be a negative experience. So how do you balance that out? And I think more Football is the answer, not less Football. And I don’t I see this as kind of just chewing at the edges of that of that problem.

Clint Derringer 14:12
The amount of downtime previously in previous generations of Football was more than adequately filled with, you know, with the marching band and a couple other, you know, introductions, people on the field now that there’s so much downtime between stoppages in play. That’s why they’ve had to increase the different channels of content that they’re shoving into this and now, it’s right now it’s growing instead of shrinking. It’s some point. The innovation is going to be targeted how to reduce the overall time of the event rather than right now. They’re, they’re coming up with ideas, to put on the video boards and to try to keep people engaged During the downtime, but at some point, they’re going to try to shift the creative thinking to eliminate that downtime altogether. That’s, that will, we’ll be able to tell, I think when, when that shift in thinking has happened, and it might, it might come at the expense of the TV, or you know, the consumer at home, whether it’s streaming, or television or whatever, right, because a lot of that advertising revenue probably does get shoved onto the screen, like we’ve seen in browsers and pop ups, and click ads, and all that stuff. So other sports are finding ways to do it, for sure. I think professional golf does the split screen where you can still see what’s happening on the left side of the screen, and there’s an ad on the right side of the screen. These are the types of things that are going to start to happen when when the people in power really want to reduce the event time, and it’s going to happen, because there’s going to be like you said, an entire generation of people who just choose not to go to the stadiums, you know, these the 100,000 seat stadiums, are really a sad affair, when you know, they’re half empty, or even more than half empty. You know, we’ve seen that that impact was felt, you know, all over the country in 2020. So, this, this is going to happen at some point. And we’ll see what type of solutions come out of it.

Phil Callihan 16:26
Speaking of the new stadium boards are nearing completion, they’re going to be in for the next season at Michigan Stadium. I drive by every couple of days, and they’re definitely they’re definitely in. So again, looking forward to that. But again, you know, when you know, so Clint, you and I have gone to Football games long enough to remember when there was just a old school scoreboard that had the score and pretty much the down, right. And we talked about this, I always say that there’s there’s basically three different games happening at the same time, or three different takes, right? There’s the game you see on television, or listen to on the radio, right? Kind of the media perspective, the media presentation, there’s the game you see as a fan from wherever you’re sitting in the stadium. And then there’s, the game is called on the field, right? What the players and coaches see. And what I really loved about when they first put the video scoreboards in is, as somebody who was sitting in the stands, it was great to be able to see a replay of something that happened away from you, or where somebody stood up, or, you know, you just didn’t have a good view of right. And, you know, I loved you know, one of the first thing is they’d run stats all the time. And I’m like, Oh, this is great, right. So, you know, I always tell the story. When I was in college, there was the mugging of Desmond Howard, in the endzone against Michigan State. I was in that endzone. And everybody stood up, and, you know, started, you know, cheering and everything. And then there was a great tumult. And I didn’t know what happened. Okay, till we left the game and saw it on television. You know, all I remember is the ball in the air, it hits his hands looks like he catches it, and then, you know, hands in the air blocking your view. Now, obviously, you know, Michigan lost, but again, it really was baffling to not, you know, be able to know everything that happened. So I you know, even as somebody who really watches the game and cares about the game, I was really excited for the for the scoreboards, but there’s a certain point where again, it’s just kind of an add on, it’s not a an attractor. So it’ll be interesting to see how they leverage these new video boards that are that are even bigger and better.

Clint Derringer 18:58
Yeah, it’s, it was a giant leap going from the old analog, you know, light, you know, light bulb scoreboard. That was there even when I was in college, to to the video boards because of exactly what you said, just being able to see the replays for everybody. And then that immediately became pretty, pretty political because you show you show a replay, right that the fans are disappointed with the call on the field, right? They’re even more likely than to kind of rain down on the officials and kind of impact to the process with the officiating. So you know, the scoreboard operator in which replays to show and how to show you know, is kind of interesting to watch sometimes when there’s a close call you know, if the home team is impacted or not impacted, or helped or hurt, right, it’s it’s interesting to see what which angles you see on the replay because you know, they have cameras all over the place, but that that scoreboard update right now is something that is is interesting to me in a small sense because it had to be done just because technology evolves so quickly with with with these digital screen technology is to the point to where it seems like the university operations. You know, we’re having a hard time maintaining the old scoreboards just because you know the parts and they’re fighting obsolescence. So you have a bunch of obsolete items that you can no longer get your hands on, and you can’t maintain, you know, what’s going on. And now the things going to start breaking down and really impacting everybody. So wow, I think the upgrade makes a lot of sense. I think it’s been, it’s about 10 years or so I think, which is pretty standard for how long it takes for this technology evolve. And all of a sudden, you need to start moving on to the next to the next version of these, these screens. So it then get gets mixed a little bit with the the arms race to have the biggest right, the fanciest the show us the most bells and whistles and you know, a lot of monkey see monkey do with what other teams have done both college and pro and other stadiums. So all of that kind of wraps into this thing. You had to you had to make an upgrade. So they take the opportunity for the construction and in probably tact a little bit more into it to try to get to closer to the state of the art or to compete with with other stadiums around around the area.

Phil Callihan 21:44
Well, for sure, and it’ll be interesting, because like I said, we talked about that, there are some good things that come with it. And you know, I will have to see how it gets leveraged. And, and moving forward. So

Clint Derringer 22:00
One of the big things that changed, you mentioned the stats, right? And that’s one thing, creating that extra space where the team stats are there, right? So they show Michigan’s passing, rushing, right, first downs, all of those type of what you get on the team overview on the stat page in the box score, that was a big deal, I think it’d be interesting to see if they start to look more into any of the analytics and provide a deeper detail. Not right away. But you know, if they create the capacity to, to kind of look at that stuff, some efficiency numbers, or anything that is more, a little bit more advanced in terms of statistics, and not just raw yards and first downs and whatever else. So it’s one particular thing that maybe you and I would certainly notice immediately if they go into some of the more advanced metrics.

Phil Callihan 22:54
And I would love to see that. Again, we’ll have to see. You know, it seems to me that there’s not a, there’s not a lot of forward leaning to do things that are a typical. So I’m hoping that they do look at the scoreboard as a way to do those kinds of things, right. Like you said, I’d love to see, you know, projections, I’d love to see percentages, I’d love to see all kinds of really cool things that, you know, when I’m watching a game in the press box, I have stats, okay, and, you know, some of the resources we use that if I was sitting, if I was a person who cared about that, oh, I wouldn’t be losing that when I’m in the stadium. And I wouldn’t have to be on my phone to get it, that I could just look up and go, oh, like more of a heads up display for the game. Right? Here’s what’s happening. And I wouldn’t even see I wouldn’t even mind seeing more running. Both see not commentary, but, you know, opportunity of watching other games, you know, seeing results of important games being piped in alongside, right, especially as we get later in the season and, and things start to matter more. So, again, I think there’s lots of opportunities for innovation. I’m hoping that’s what this is used for. And not just bigger, right? Because, you know, there is the oh, well now we’re just gonna make it bigger. Well, that’s more high, you know, more high definition. Well, listen, I love high definition. But you have all this real estate and you know, again, to mention the Tigers again, right. When you go to Comerica Park, when they built that, you know, the built the stadium. They’re like all the Tigers are going to have one of the biggest scoreboards in the major leagues. And really, a lot of it is pretty static and a lot of it is used for ads, right? It’s not, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s great. It’s good, but it’s not, you know, 100 represent for the fan experience. There’s a lot of a lot of other masters who are being served there. So it’ll be interesting to see. You know, I think, you know, one of the cool things I like on the scoreboard that they do before games is they have, you know, you can tweet pictures with a hashtag, and they’ll put pictures of fans. I like that, you know, that’s, that’s a way to engage people. Right. So there there are there are opportunities for innovation, and hopefully they will move toward that.

Clint Derringer 25:31
Yeah, I agree.

Phil Callihan 25:32
So, talked about changes coming up for this season. For 2024 and 2025. We have some big changes coming. You know, we have some new members joining the big 10, which is going to going to impact things quite a bit. We have USC and UCLA joining the mix. And one of the things that was announced is that the big 10 will be collapsing the divisions. So we will have one big monster conference. And as part of that, there will be protected matchups so that there are certain games that teams will be guaranteed to play. For Michigan, that’ll be Michigan and Michigan State and Michigan, Ohio State.

Clint Derringer 26:28
I think the conference did well, to first of all, not continue with geographic divisions, just because that’s the way that we had done it, right. So trying to shoehorn USC and UCLA into the West and East Division. It pretty could have been done pretty simply, right. And I think that it would have caused enough problems. But that kind of merged with another movement around all of college Football, where many of the conferences are are trying to get away from division winners playing for the championship game. Instead, they want to see the two best teams play a championship game, as determined by the standings. So there’s still, we knew there was never they were never going to eliminate the championship game, because one more high level Football game in December is such a revenue maker. So the division is going away was never going to eliminate the championship game. Other conferences have already done this. You know, I’m thinking of the big 12, in particular, but it’s going it’s coming everywhere. So I think that it was smart, to kind of take that momentum, for removing divisions and to rethink exactly what this should look like with 16 teams and adding to West Coast teams. So it made a lot of sense. I’m glad that they got out of the old way of thinking the way that we were currently doing it. And at least rethought about it in a fresh sense. And then I thought that they were also pretty creative. That they didn’t just take every team and say, okay, each team has, you know, one protected rivalry or two protected rivals, some of the models that have been kicked around or that were used in the past, where we kind of forced rivalries that didn’t make a lot of sense. And I think they did well, to avoid that trap. You know, it was it was really interesting to me that, you know, Penn State doesn’t have a protected rivalry, which is, you know, something to kind of think about or, you know, I wonder, we don’t know exactly how that happens, or what the impact of that is. But the benefit of all of that creative thinking, and being able to kind of get outside the box with the way that they scheduled and made these protected rivalries is that you will play, you know, hypothetically, a player that’s at a school for four years will get to visit every venue in the big 10. Right. And, again, they’re kind of spinning it from the player experience. But I think a lot of that comes from the fan experience or from other revenue drivers. But regardless, it’s a huge improvement that every team will see the rest of the conference in a short time span, which has been probably the biggest problem since the big 10 has expanded in my lifetime, is that there was such long downtime between seeing another team that’s within your conference, you know. I remember it. I remember causing problems in the 90s and early 2000s when you’d have two teams that were undefeated that never ended They’re playing each other. And that was okay, let’s get a conference game and put that on top so that those two teams would play each other. You know, but you never know which the divisions never made sense. And now, I think it’s, it’s a big improvement to say, no matter what you’re gonna have a home in a way with every team within a four year cycle. And that is, that’s the biggest thing that I would applaud from, from the whole exercise that they did a lot of creative things to end up at that particular outcome. And that was the right way to do it.

Phil Callihan 30:34
So when I first looked at it, I noticed the same thing you did. I’m like, where’s Penn State in this? Like, I kept thinking there was another screen of protected matchups. So I do think that’s interesting. I also think that this acknowledges that Michigan is the cream of the crop of the big 10. Because, of course, we’re the only school that has two protected matchups. A little bit of snark there. As you said, the divisions in the big 10 have been mishandled from day one, right. And you were always trying to jam teams to make a get a competitive balance. And let’s be honest, the West has been kind of an also ran. So when we first started hearing about UCLA and USC joining, I just assumed they were gonna get thrown in the West, because you know, they’re in the West. And that would have, you know, I think, balanced power wise, but I can imagine that the schools in the West division would not have been a big fan of all that extra travel going back and forth there. So. So I really liked what you said about everybody having to travel to all the schools. I think I Okay, I think this is a temporary measure. Okay. I think this is what we’re going to do for 24 and 25. We’re going to see how it plays out. I I can’t see this being the long term solution. Okay. And I think back and again, I’m gonna use a baseball analogy. So before baseball had divisions, okay, you had the American League in the National League. And if you were one of the top two or three teams, great, if you were one of the also anybody else, you really, you had to watch the game because you loved it, but there really wasn’t any, you didn’t have any stake in the games, because your team was so far out, right. And they split up the divisions to give you something to play for. So I feel as if that, again, this is a temporary solution, because I don’t think the big 10 is done expanding, that’s another, you know, put a pin in that. Okay. And, you know, I’m gonna stake my claim here. When we get done adding teams, I want to see a traditional big 10 division and a new big 10 division, I would love to see that. Okay, if I had my, you know, I’m the emperor of sports. That’s what I would love to see. And, and I think we’re going to end up in some kind of division mix again, at some point, just because you can have, you know, Michigan, Penn State and Ohio State fighting for everything, and possibly, you know, one of the one of the new school from California. I just, I think you got to, you got to create a little artificial sizzle there. So I think, again, we’re this is a, this is a rough draft of what we’re gonna see, you know, I’m interesting, interested in what 26 is going to look like.

Clint Derringer 33:46
Yeah, I think a lot of that is outside of the control even of the big 10 institutions, right. So I think the big 10 Now is the first the first conference that truly touches, you know, coast to coast. So from the Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic Ocean. So

Phil Callihan 34:01
Can I have the marketing tag from sea to shining sea?

Clint Derringer 34:05
Exactly. So the that is now again, just like when the big 10 created the big 10 network, and the rest of the conferences followed suit. That’s been, I think, the goal of many of the conferences through all of the realignment, you know, the, the SEC really kind of shattered or really kicked off this new wave of realignment when Texas and Oklahoma moved from the big 12 into the into the SEC. So that drove a lot of this conversation. But really what’s driving this now is less about certainly less about geography than it is about creating big time matchups. So there were in the last 10 years, there were movements to try to create these off site or neutral site games that brought big power teams from different conferences together. And there was, you know, moderate success, there’s but but the the opportunity for those non conference games, you know only three or four on the schedule, depending on where you play, you know, of course, the SEC still only plays eight conference games somehow. But that’s a different a whole different topic. But that’s a limited amount of opportunity when you’re trying to create these Titanic matchups between big programs, right? Again, that is what’s driving this is to try to get larger conferences, and then create schedules that rotate so that you are getting some regular diet of the best teams playing the best teams. So I agree with you that this is temporary. I don’t know. I don’t know how, you know, whether it’s divisions or some other type of realignment. But the next big shift is the continued conference realignment, I think with seeing what the big 12 Does, they’ve added new schools after they lost Texas and Oklahoma. Certainly not, they’re not the same. They’re not the same conference that they were with, with Texas and Oklahoma. So adding, you know, Cincinnati, and some of the other Mid American, or, you know, middle of the country teams, to the big 12 Geographically, is is okay, just to make sure that you have the right number to fill out your schedule. But in terms of adding power, in terms of content creation, and creating these large games, there are still some pretty big dominoes to fall in the next couple of years with the other conferences, and I think many people still are assuming, or kind of have their eye on the big 10. And the SEC right now continuing to kind of eat up these other conferences, so all of the all of the most powerful Football programs, looking to join one of those two and trying to stay out of the you know, that second tier, and I think we’ve we’ve now moved out of the power five, and group of five era, right. And it’s, it’s, we’re now moving rapidly towards the power to, and the group of, you know, the rest of the group of eight conferences, just in terms of historical power and revenue sharing, that’s going to happen in these other conferences. So the big 10 made their big move here with the West Coast teams, I would think that some of the other conferences will be the next to act. And then there’ll be some type of, of kind of counter move from both the big 10 and the SEC, but it does feel like we’re moving towards two really large super conferences.

Phil Callihan 37:49
Absolutely. And want to put in my plug here. One of the things I am genuinely excited about with UCLA joining the big 10 is an opportunity to go to a Michigan game at the Rose Bowl. And with the way that the bowl games have been moved around, you know, it used to be the end of the year carrot that hopefully Michigan would make the Rose Bowl, so you could go and go to California and see a game. And while the game may not matter as much as a playoff game or a national championship game, the experience of seeing a game at the Rose Bowl is one that should not be missed. And definitely one of the things that I am looking forward to as as the schedules come out and the projections because it is it is the way Football was intended. It is definitely an experience to be had. So I’m definitely looking forward to that.

Clint Derringer 38:54
Yeah, I think that it is a major benefit now increased opportunity. I mean, anybody you know, could have gone to see a game at the Rose Bowl, but to see, you know, to be able to go and visit and see Michigan there to play in that venue, which hasn’t happened for at least was a 2005. Rose Bowl, maybe the two, six was bowl.

Phil Callihan 39:15
I was at the game Michigan in Texas. Yeah. And last time that we were there, you know, and back then, you know, we were going to the Rose Bowl fairly regularly. And I remember casually going to that game not thinking that it would be 18 years. So excited about that. So Clint, there was some other you know, we’ve talked a lot about what’s happening in the big 10. You know, we kind of have a low in the season before things start gearing up. If there were changes you could make, you know, I talked about you know, I have a goal someday of there being traditional big 10 kind conference or division and a new new school big 10 conference? What kind of changes? You know, if you were emperor of sports? What kind of things would you like to see change to, you know, either improve your experience or you think things you have a preference for or that could improve the game overall?

Clint Derringer 40:22
Well, the really the huge seismic change that I would look at is driven by kind of what I mentioned earlier today, in that if I’m watching a game, regardless of who’s involved, I hope that there’s something that makes it interesting. Now, this is kind of the challenge of the old bowl system is trying to find two teams to play against each other to have some kind of something that’s going to make it interesting to watch most of the people I think that watch all of the 30 or so, you know, 30 Something bowl games in December in January, they’re gonna watch it no matter what, because they’re Football junkies. But from from just an interest standpoint, I think playoff expansion helps with making interest. Okay, so I think most of the critics have playoff expansion. Or that it’s, it gives the best teams, the historical powerhouse teams, kind of a mulligan, so whereas, you know, if Alabama, Oklahoma, Ohio State, Michigan, you know, with the team Georgia now, right, the powerhouse teams that have been there multiple times. If they slip up, then you’ve lowered the stakes of the regular season games, you’ve taken importance away from regular season games. And I don’t discount that, right. That’s true, I think inaccurate. However, once you don’t, it doesn’t just disappear into thin air, right? You’ve taken that regular season importance from that one high stakes game like the Michigan Ohio State game, for example. And you’ve now spread it over a bunch of other games where teams that have two or three losses are really playing each other and trying to get into the playoffs. So I think making games more interesting across the board is what would drive anything that I changed. So I think I believe that there’s going to be continued playoff expansion, I don’t think it’s done at 12, I think it’ll probably get to 16. Once there’s a natural alignment with conferences, I think conference realignment happens first, and then the playoff expands to 16. So that’s just kind of a prediction, where I would really, if I were the emperor of sport, I would create a relegation system like soccer, that keeps the games interesting, where you have the one and two win teams playing against each other. So if Rutgers wants to stay in the big 10, then they’ve got to beat you know, Michigan State in the last week of the season. And that that’s a game that I’m going to watch for sure. All right, I’m going to watch for the rivalry tie ends, and I’m going to watch for teams that are playing, not to get relegated up or down. So again, this would require some some type of conference realignment. In my mind, it was always kind of like, if we just took the Midwest as an example, geographically, you had the big 10 tier of teams, and then you had like the Mac tier of teams, and that Rutgers would be playing to stay out of the Mac, and then your Mac champion gets to move into the big 10. And there’s a financial and revenue sharing reward there for the teams that have really made it work at the Mid American level. So again, there’s a lot of a lot of what ifs and things that would have to happen. But just like playoff expansion kind of spreads out the value of games and matchups at the top tier, I would try to find ways to increase interest and, and put eyeballs on some of the games where lesser teams are playing, because I think that that would really enhance Football set Saturdays, regardless of who your favorite team is, you’re going to watch that you’re going to watch some of the marquee games. But I think it’s still interesting to then go watch some of the some of the teams that are struggling to win or really watch some of the best smaller conference schools, some of the whatever right now the group of five teams continue to try to play their way up into the, into the big leagues, so to speak, like what we’ve seen with Cincinnati and Boise recently kind of moving, moving up to the top tier of the G five and then eventually getting plucked by these by these conferences. So that relegation would be what I would explore if I if I could wave a magic wand.

Phil Callihan 44:55
It’s interesting. I was thinking about that when I was talking about like old big 10 new big 10 I was thinking, you know, there used to be, again, using the, the baseball analogy, there used to be upper division and lower division, right, like, and so I liked that, I think that that makes a lot of sense. You know, where you get teams that have something to fight for, right? So. So you know, and I’ve said this before, you know, at the beginning of every season, I want every Football team to know what they need to do, they need to do to make the playoffs, okay? I don’t want a team to have to rely on, you know, how the voters feel about them, or how the media covers them. So what I like about the expansion of the playoffs is, you know, we talked about how the diminishing value of, of the power five, right? But for now, hey, if you’re in a power five conference, when your conference when your championship game, and you’re in, okay, I don’t care what your record is, you know, you should be able to, there should be something you check the box, and you know, you’re in. And I think that’s where I don’t think the media is going to give up having the ability to vote and argue about who is really the best two teams, right. So my thing is, when, you know, their coaches should be able, every coach should be able to tell his team, you went out and you’re in, okay, or, you know, you make the conference championship game, you know, it shouldn’t be well, if you win the Champions game ship game, and everybody likes you enough. And you’re on TV enough, okay. The The other change, I would love to see, because, you know, I beat the drum on on every team should know what they need to do for years now. But what I’d like to see as flex scheduling, okay, I would love to see if we’re going to, you know, add games, as we have, you know, the, you know, the first game of the season, be a matchup of all the top Tanner or 14 teams from last season. Right? Force, a very difficult game on everybody right at the beginning, right. So yeah, I’d like to see some manner of flex scheduling where, you know, right now we have schedules set up, you know, sometimes 1015 20 years in the future. And what looks like a good game on paper now may not be just from a, you know, again, imagine if Michigan was playing TCU. Again, first game of the season, right? And And now, again, I’m not sure you would, you probably have one versus, you know, one versus three, two versus four. But that would be awesome. That would be great to see, Michigan get a chance to kind of wipe that stain off of the record. So again, I would like to see some manner of flex scheduling, and logistics wise, they’ll tell us that it can happen. And I just roll my eyes because somehow, you know, the NFL can can do playoff games with a with a week notice. But college Football needs 18 years to move on boss. Right. So

Clint Derringer 48:13
yeah, I think that’s right. And it’s, it’s something that they try to tackle again, with the bowl season. Again, these are, these are questions that have been answered in the past. It’s just a matter of figuring out a way to do it systematically.

Phil Callihan 48:27
You know, the big 10 will tell us that the big 10 Championship always needs to be in the Indianapolis because they need they need time to plan. And listen nothing against the good people of Indianapolis, but I would love to see the big 10 championship game get moved around a little bit, too, you know. So another thing while we’re talking about college Football playoffs is as the playoffs expand, I love the idea of on campus games for for the top teams. And and with the caveat that I’ve heard rumors about the big 10 Wanting to rotate that around, instead of having an on campus. I don’t want that at all. I want him to be on campus. I don’t care what the weather is, I don’t care what it looks like. So, you know, pass the big 10 championship game around however you want. But, you know, when the college Football playoffs, you know, with the expansion of hopefully the top teams being able to have a buy in or possibly a home game, depending how the schedule breaks out. I would really like on campus games.

Clint Derringer 49:39
Yeah, I agree. That’s it’s one of the kind of field leveling opportunities that comes with this change, you know, with the the dominance of the SEC. You know, now if one of those teams that we mentioned before slips up, and now has to get in as a lower seat. At least they now have to travel north and be out of there be out of their comfort. zone and play, you know, perhaps a cold weather game in December in a big 10 Stadium, and certainly certainly at least provides for some more interest. And, you know, if they continue to dominate by winning those road games after slipping up, then, you know, there’s not much to say, but, you know, show me first let me see it happen is you can compare bowl records, right as, as the big 10 teams travel to the west coast into the southeast part of the country and play these teams. Because at least they’re you know, quote, unquote, neutral fields, but you’re reversing the traffic flow. And having these teams come play in the cold weather late in the season, at least, would provide a an interesting data point that I’d like to see how successful they’re

Phil Callihan 50:46
We talked about earlier in the podcast, you want to have you want to improve the in stadium experience. You want to improve it have a game that matters, a huge game that matters, a historic game, that may only happened, you know, every X couple of years. And, you know, I think about, you know, we kind of we were in the wilderness wandering in the hope era and the Rodriguez era. And I wonder how many Michigan young Michigan fans just didn’t have that experience of seeing a huge win. That makes them want to be a fan forever. Right now. And I think that if there’s been anything great about the last couple of seasons is you could see, as Michigan, you know, has risen up against Ohio State and had some huge wins, you could definitely I could definitely look back and say yeah, these are the things that that young fans remember, these are the stories they’ll be telling 1020 years from now on why you go back and why you return. So if you want to improve in field or in stadium, have one of these epic matchups where the SEC has to travel up somewhere. So I think that would be the kind of thing that you could really excite your fan base with. And again, epic TV as well.

Phil Callihan 52:15
So Clint, do you have any other things that you would change or you’d like to see modified?

Clint Derringer 52:21
I think that’s the real that real large one with with relegation would drive most of it for me. And there’s a lot of smaller changes, that would probably have to happen to make that to make that work. But that’s, that’s where I would start, I’d love to see teams playing against each other that don’t normally get to play against each other. And I’d like to see more interest in the teams that the records are not necessarily great. But I’d like to see them really competing not only against each other on the field, but kind of keeping an eye on the mid tier conferences to see what’s happening, to see whether, you know, like I said, Rutgers is going to have to switch with Toledo or Central Michigan or something that would be that’s, that’s where I would start. I find that hugely entertaining to think about.

Phil Callihan 53:06
So I think that’s great from the fan perspective. And that’s something definitely I’d love to see. Right. I think from the player perspective, I would like to see a ton more transparency with NFL, like a, like a dashboard. Like for example. You know, schools will tout their academics, schools will tout their records, schools will tout how many players got drafted. I get the impression that NHL is now the Wild West. And a lot of promises being made a lot of things happening in the shadows. And, you know, you and I’ve talked about this, I think it’s great that players are being able to participate in the profits of their labors. Okay. I feel that in some ways, there’s a lot of snake oil being slathered about. And I think from a you know, if you’re, if you’re thinking about this as a marketplace, right, it would be really nice to know, you know, because you hear stories, right? You hear stories, and I have air quotes, right? of, well, this player is making a million dollars there and this player is making a half a million there. And you just wonder, right, you wonder if, if that is gossip to kind of encourage the next round of players and how much there is there. Okay. You know, we’ve heard a lot in the last couple of years about how Michigan was lagging behind in NHL. And you know, there was a recent announcement that Coach Harbaugh is now I think you can say endorsing a He’s a new collective here at Michigan. And, you know, it’s it’s going to be great. And it’s going to be wonderful. And there are a number of collectives all doing things a little bit differently. But not that we’re ever going to see anything from the NCAA because they’re useless. But I’m wondering if because there are no and follow me here. Because there’s financial finances involved, okay. And you have tax implications, if there’s going to be some mandatory reporting, that schools are going to have to do players are going to have to do that can be rounded up, collected, and there’ll be some kind of a dashboard of, you know, here is the average and I’ll take in this sport at this school. First of all, I’m just interested in it as a as from a fan’s perspective. Right, I would love to know, now that the SEC can’t just drop bags of money on people’s porches. You know, how big are those bags of money? How, how equally is it distributed? Right? And it would be interesting to see, and I think, you know, again, from a player’s perspective, you want to make sure they’re getting paid. Okay? You want to make sure there aren’t just stories going around that, you know, that the players who are performing and, you know, generating a lot of interest and a lot of value for their schools are being taken care of in such a way. And that there’s, again, some kind of oversight, that that the money’s really going where it needs to go.

Clint Derringer 56:43
Yeah, and I think there are lots of problems with NIL because it is the Wild West it is, you know, not quite brand new, but certainly a new phase of the game. But it’s still allowing players allowing college athletes to to monetize their name, image and likeness is the right thing, just because they play a sport or represent their institutions. I don’t believe that they should have that. That opportunity taken away from where the problems come from, in my opinion, are that the NIHL framework is being it’s a scapegoat or a shield from the NCAA institutions having to just pay the players directly as employees. Right. And this is the argument that is happening in the court system. And eventually we’ll get all the way to the top, I’m sure. And again, we’ve seen it, whether it’s the legislature or whether it’s the courts, the NCAA loses this argument 99 times out of 100, the the institutions and the governing organization, the NCAA are making huge amounts of revenue without having to share it at all, in terms of direct plant payment for the players. So name image and likeness was sort of a fig leaf concept that the the NCAA was kind of forced to accept in the courts, you know, in the last five years, and now they’re pointing at these problems. But in reality, the problems in terms of align with the fact that not everybody’s name, image and likeness has the same value, of course, right? So that having, you know, we’re seeing these collectives being put together to try to dump a bunch of money into from donors and other institutions, and then distribute to the players for playing, right. Well, that’s a problem. Yeah, because they’re trying to use this, this framework, that should be helping individual players monetize their name, image likeness. It’s being used as a collective to pay, you know, for salary, or to try to make sure that everybody who’s making the sacrifices for a team kind of is compensated across the board. And that’s not what it was meant for. But it’s trying to fill the gap that the institutions are leaving. So it is, in my opinion, it’s good that the opportunity for players of all sports, not just the big revenue, sports, but for all sports, to be able to use their standing in their sport and to monetize that is good and should stay to huge questions and problems, I think are still because this is being put in place rather than the institutions just recognizing that they are employing these players and making money off the backs of all those games and the content and the rest. So figuring that out, and deciding how We’re going to treat that in the courts and with the laws, hopefully at the federal level is really what’s going to happen to make sure that it’s it’s universal and standard. Otherwise it’s going to be, it’s always going to be the Wild West, because people are are trying to take care of a problem that NIHL wasn’t designed to solve.

Phil Callihan 1:00:21
So, Clint, I just want to be clear. I think it’s great. The players are getting paid. I’m I’m not, you know, in no way. I want no one to think that I am not completely 100% for the players being paid. When I say I want the visibility is I want them to know exactly where they should go to get paid to make sure that the money that they’re making the best choice possible. Okay. And my issue with the Collective’s, and I would say universally, okay. Whichever one, okay. Is we used to look at the NCAA and say, Okay, how much do you bring in how much goes back to the players? How much goes to overhead? Right? And we look at how much the NCAA pays, you know, their, their president, right. And there is no way on God’s green earth. Okay, that you can justify that. Right? I mean, that the NCAA can justify that. Okay. There’s no way that, you know, Mark emirate makes, you know, before he left $3 million here, there is no way he’s bet worth that. Okay, I can guarantee that you are I could do that job for a fraction of that, and do what the NCAA does, okay. So the point that I’m making with the collectives is, when I see the overhead and percentages they’re taking, okay, you should be able to have a dashboard that says, okay, collective, a collective bliss, collective, see, here’s the percentage that goes to the players, here’s the value, they each do things a little differently. So you can make that choice, okay. And when I say make a choice, you can make a choice between whether you’re gonna go to Texas or Michigan, or you’re going to go to Texas, or Alabama, or Michigan or Michigan State. So that’s why again, because you know, there’s going to be a collective part where you’re getting so much everybody’s getting something from the collective, and they’re going to be individual deals, right. And at some point, you got to pay taxes on that. And that’s why I’m wondering, why No, I’m not wondering, I’m thinking, this is going to have to happen at at the federal level. So you don’t get Florida or Alabama cutting their teams a break on state laws, right? You know, you know, death and taxes are coming, right. So if, at the federal level, there’ll be some kind of dashboard on last year, this is how much the average player made, right? And, and so that you don’t get recruited by somewhere, well, hey, you’re gonna get $5 million? Well, then you show up and you don’t, right. So that’s what I’m saying. Transparency is just information so that the players can make the best deal possible. Because it definitely feels to me when I read some of the organizations that are being set up, that the overhead is pretty high. So you should know that and, you know, again, they, they’re, it’s everything is so the problem I have is everything is better for the players now, right? Like, any collective can say, hey, this is a good deal, because there wasn’t anything before. And like you said, Hey, you be getting screwed for years. So anything is great, right? But I look at, you know, I think about, you know, and this is, you know, a far tangent, but like, when somebody signs a record contract, and then they hit it big, and then they look back five years later and go, Wow, that really wasn’t that good of a deal. Right? You should know what the deal is. And I think this is all going to get sorted out in the next five to 10 years. You know, I think five years from now, 10 years from now, we’ll go to a website somewhere and there will be a dashboard saying, you know, and and it will be something that players can evaluate just like the value of your degree, or the value of the network at the school you go to, but I would like to see steps made towards that sooner rather than later.

Clint Derringer 1:04:37
Yeah, anything that helps kind of clarify and protect the players, you know, this is kind of just opened the door to a whole nother population of people that are making money off the backs of what the players are doing.

Phil Callihan 1:04:50
Well, that’s what I’m saying. And that’s why you want to make sure you’re making the best deal. You know, there’s always the analogy of when there’s the gold rush the P who make money? Are the people selling pics? Right? I feel a lot of the collectives are the people selling pics. So, and again, you know, casting no aspersions. You know it costs money to set up an organization, but you should be able to evaluate. So all right. Well, Clint, we’ve tackled a lot in this podcast Do you have anything to to finish with?

Clint Derringer 1:05:22
Not looking forward to, you know, it’s the countdown is kind of started. I think it’s something like eight or maybe nine weeks until the regular season so we’ll have some specific season Football stuff to talk about here relatively soon.

Phil Callihan 1:05:37
And we’re anticipating quite a big season.