Official UM/SC Outback Bowl Game Day Thread

The 2013 offense will go as far as the new OL takes them. We will have 4 new OL (assuming Lewan is gone) playing for the first time so there will be growing pains. That's why I said this spring/fall camp is so important to identify that group so they can gel together.

Go Blue!!

MattyGoBlue!

Our starting corners for this game were 3rd and 4th string on the depth charts at the start of the season and is showed BIG TIME in yesterday's game.  Losing Countess in the first game of the season hurt, but then having to slot Avery in Floyd's position?  That one hurt yesterday and, to me, that was the biggest reason the defense was exposed.  I never thought Floyd's absence would be felt as much as it was.  

And wrt the offense, I am looking forward to seeing what Devin can do with an entire year under his belt.  I'm looking forward to seeing Borges being able to playcall for ONE style of offense instead of calling plays for when Devin is under center and going with an entirely different scheme when Denard was in the game.  Gruden even said during the broadcast how difficult it must be to have to come up with playcalling for two entirely different styles of offense.  I'm not Borges' biggest fan, but I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and wait and see how his playcalling will be next year with Denard gone.

And I totally agree that the RichRod apologists will be out in full force next year beating their fire Hoke drums if we have another season like we did this year for the simple fact that RichRod only got 3 years so Hoke should be no different.  Difference is, RichRod's overall record in his 3 years didn't even scare the .500 mark.  Hoke already has an eleven win season, a win over OSU, ND and MSU, and a BCS Bowl victory under his belt.  And even though we look at his 8-5 record this past season as a disappointment, it was still BETTER than RichRod's best season (7-6) in his 3 years at Michigan!  I look back at this season and think, was it really that bad?  We had 5 losses on the season which doesn't look good on paper.  But, 3 of those losses were to teams ranked in the top 3 in the AP Poll with two of the teams to beat us playing for the National Championship.  Four of the five teams that beat us had a combined THREE losses!  And in those games, outside of the Alabama game, we lost the other three by an average of less than a touchdown.   Would I have liked us to find a way to win those games?  Sure.  But it's not like we were getting blown out in those games either.  A break here or there (like we had last year) and we'd be looking at a 2 or 3 loss team as opposed to a 5 loss team. 

I'm certainly not happy about finishing with 5 losses, but with the schedule we had this year and the closeness of almost every loss, I'm certainly not discouraged and I'm actually encouraged looking at this team going forward!  We have a TON of young talent all over the roster and especially on defense.  The key will be developing the potential studs we've been recruiting along the offensive line.  If we can see these bigs develop as they are projected to, and Devin keeps progressing as a QB, I really like the makeup of this team moving forward!  And if we can somehow land Green as a part of the 2013 class to go along with Smith, we could be looking at one hell of a backfield next season as well!

 
Excellent post, Matty. 
 
Losing is not acceptable, but you made great points about the schedule and the way those games were lost. 
 
Biggest keys to next season, IMO: 1. Can this young offensive line develop fast enough? 2. Will the wide receivers, most of whom were not highly recruited, step up and become threats to make the defenses honest? 3. Will we start creating pressure without having to blitz?
 
Our linebackers going into next season will be a huge strength, dline has quality depth, corners will be solid (if Countess returns healthy), QB with experience, and very talented tight ends. The running game could be deadly if the line develops and we bring in the duo of Green and Smith.

MattyGoBlue!

TK23Blue


I'm not suggesting Hoke will get canned after 3 years.  In fact, I'm willing to bet he retires from Michigan.  I'm just saying after next year the firebradyhoke web sites will probably start-up from the fans again and people here will be calling for his head because hey, Rod got 3 years and got booted so Hoke should too.  In the end, he's not going anywhere.  My biggest concern is the fact that for 2 straight bowl games we had 2 teams who didn't seem prepared to play football.  Last year the offense was horrendous and this year the D got exposed while the offense was completely out of sync the first half.  That's been our MO with these bowl games for a long, long time and it's a trend I was hoping would change with Hoke.  My 2nd concern is Hoke & Co's ability to develop QB's in the passing game.  DRob took huge steps backwards in the throwing game under Hoke and DG looks promising at times and brutal at others.  (he needs more time at the position so not time to panic yet.)  Those are the two areas I want to see us clean up.  

Our starting corners for this game were 3rd and 4th string on the depth charts at the start of the season and is showed BIG TIME in yesterday's game.  Losing Countess in the first game of the season hurt, but then having to slot Avery in Floyd's position?  That one hurt yesterday and, to me, that was the biggest reason the defense was exposed.  I never thought Floyd's absence would be felt as much as it was. 

And wrt the offense, I am looking forward to seeing what Devin can do with an entire year under his belt.  I'm looking forward to seeing Borges being able to playcall for ONE style of offense instead of calling plays for when Devin is under center and going with an entirely different scheme when Denard was in the game.  Gruden even said during the broadcast how difficult it must be to have to come up with playcalling for two entirely different styles of offense.  I'm not Borges' biggest fan, but I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and wait and see how his playcalling will be next year with Denard gone.

And I totally agree that the RichRod apologists will be out in full force next year beating their fire Hoke drums if we have another season like we did this year for the simple fact that RichRod only got 3 years so Hoke should be no different.  Difference is, RichRod's overall record in his 3 years didn't even scare the .500 mark.  Hoke already has an eleven win season, a win over OSU, ND and MSU, and a BCS Bowl victory under his belt.  And even though we look at his 8-5 record this past season as a disappointment, it was still BETTER than RichRod's best season (7-6) in his 3 years at Michigan!  I look back at this season and think, was it really that bad?  We had 5 losses on the season which doesn't look good on paper.  But, 3 of those losses were to teams ranked in the top 3 in the AP Poll with two of the teams to beat us playing for the National Championship.  Four of the five teams that beat us had a combined THREE losses!  And in those games, outside of the Alabama game, we lost the other three by an average of less than a touchdown.   Would I have liked us to find a way to win those games?  Sure.  But it's not like we were getting blown out in those games either.  A break here or there (like we had last year) and we'd be looking at a 2 or 3 loss team as opposed to a 5 loss team. 

I'm certainly not happy about finishing with 5 losses, but with the schedule we had this year and the closeness of almost every loss, I'm certainly not discouraged and I'm actually encouraged looking at this team going forward!  We have a TON of young talent all over the roster and especially on defense.  The key will be developing the potential studs we've been recruiting along the offensive line.  If we can see these bigs develop as they are projected to, and Devin keeps progressing as a QB, I really like the makeup of this team moving forward!  And if we can somehow land Green as a part of the 2013 class to go along with Smith, we could be looking at one hell of a backfield next season as well!

As a RR apologist I said RR should get 4 years and since I stick to my principles I said the same thing for Hoke. Thank you. Otherwise all good points.

We'll know more next year.  The excuses are running out.

Excuses? lol What, like sorry, we won the BCS sugar bowl last year........

I might be in the minority here, but I'm excited about our OL next year. Can't wait for the new blood and eager horses to get after it. My big concern is depth.

Borges should watch a little NE Pats film because we could have 2-3 capable TE's next year and get pretty creative.

Go Blue!!

MattyGoBlue!

TK23Blue


I'm not suggesting Hoke will get canned after 3 years.  In fact, I'm willing to bet he retires from Michigan.  I'm just saying after next year the firebradyhoke web sites will probably start-up from the fans again and people here will be calling for his head because hey, Rod got 3 years and got booted so Hoke should too.  In the end, he's not going anywhere.  My biggest concern is the fact that for 2 straight bowl games we had 2 teams who didn't seem prepared to play football.  Last year the offense was horrendous and this year the D got exposed while the offense was completely out of sync the first half.  That's been our MO with these bowl games for a long, long time and it's a trend I was hoping would change with Hoke.  My 2nd concern is Hoke & Co's ability to develop QB's in the passing game.  DRob took huge steps backwards in the throwing game under Hoke and DG looks promising at times and brutal at others.  (he needs more time at the position so not time to panic yet.)  Those are the two areas I want to see us clean up.  

Our starting corners for this game were 3rd and 4th string on the depth charts at the start of the season and is showed BIG TIME in yesterday's game.  Losing Countess in the first game of the season hurt, but then having to slot Avery in Floyd's position?  That one hurt yesterday and, to me, that was the biggest reason the defense was exposed.  I never thought Floyd's absence would be felt as much as it was. 

And wrt the offense, I am looking forward to seeing what Devin can do with an entire year under his belt.  I'm looking forward to seeing Borges being able to playcall for ONE style of offense instead of calling plays for when Devin is under center and going with an entirely different scheme when Denard was in the game.  Gruden even said during the broadcast how difficult it must be to have to come up with playcalling for two entirely different styles of offense.  I'm not Borges' biggest fan, but I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and wait and see how his playcalling will be next year with Denard gone.

And I totally agree that the RichRod apologists will be out in full force next year beating their fire Hoke drums if we have another season like we did this year for the simple fact that RichRod only got 3 years so Hoke should be no different.  Difference is, RichRod's overall record in his 3 years didn't even scare the .500 mark.  Hoke already has an eleven win season, a win over OSU, ND and MSU, and a BCS Bowl victory under his belt.  And even though we look at his 8-5 record this past season as a disappointment, it was still BETTER than RichRod's best season (7-6) in his 3 years at Michigan!  I look back at this season and think, was it really that bad?  We had 5 losses on the season which doesn't look good on paper.  But, 3 of those losses were to teams ranked in the top 3 in the AP Poll with two of the teams to beat us playing for the National Championship.  Four of the five teams that beat us had a combined THREE losses!  And in those games, outside of the Alabama game, we lost the other three by an average of less than a touchdown.   Would I have liked us to find a way to win those games?  Sure.  But it's not like we were getting blown out in those games either.  A break here or there (like we had last year) and we'd be looking at a 2 or 3 loss team as opposed to a 5 loss team. 

I'm certainly not happy about finishing with 5 losses, but with the schedule we had this year and the closeness of almost every loss, I'm certainly not discouraged and I'm actually encouraged looking at this team going forward!  We have a TON of young talent all over the roster and especially on defense.  The key will be developing the potential studs we've been recruiting along the offensive line.  If we can see these bigs develop as they are projected to, and Devin keeps progressing as a QB, I really like the makeup of this team moving forward!  And if we can somehow land Green as a part of the 2013 class to go along with Smith, we could be looking at one hell of a backfield next season as well!

While obviously we had injuries, the corners weren't necessarily the biggest problem.  Yes, they definitely looked tentative out there but our safeties were absolutely brutal.  Secondly, we didn't play a single team all year who had a legitimate throwing QB so you had to know the defensive stats against the pass were totally skewed.  Which is why I say we got exposed.  The entire secondary is in need of SERIOUS help so hopefully it's coming.  Same goes for the D line-they were nonexistent.  Again.

How I look at it is like this. Mattison can beat Big Ten teams with scheme alone, however, when faced with a quality offense like Bama or SC he still doesn't have the horses to get it done all the time. I mean, I love me some Kovacs but what the hell was he doing on that last play? Let the SC WR run right by him. 
 
Talent is coming. It is mostly young, but the horses are coming. This will be only Hoke's second full class so next year will be the first year everyone from his first class will be available. 
 
And honestly, I'm not flipping out about our WR situation for next year. We faced an excellent defense with SC and Jeremy Flippin Gallon went off and had a day against them! He would have had an even bigger day if Gardner had been on target more. So it seems like Borges has plays and schemes that allows his WRs to get open. I mean Roundtree came on once a more traditional passer was at QB. 
 
And any talk about Hoke being on the hot seat, or the excuses are running out is just absurd. Hokes won a BCS Bowl game last year!! 

BigHouseFootball


How I look at it is like this. Mattison can beat Big Ten teams with scheme alone, however, when faced with a quality offense like Bama or SC he still doesn't have the horses to get it done all the time. I mean, I love me some Kovacs but what the hell was he doing on that last play? Let the SC WR run right by him. 

Talent is coming. It is mostly young, but the horses are coming. This will be only Hoke's second full class so next year will be the first year everyone from his first class will be available. 

And honestly, I'm not flipping out about our WR situation for next year. We faced an excellent defense with SC and Jeremy Flippin Gallon went off and had a day against them! He would have had an even bigger day if Gardner had been on target more. So it seems like Borges has plays and schemes that allows his WRs to get open. I mean Roundtree came on once a more traditional passer was at QB. 

And any talk about Hoke being on the hot seat, or the excuses are running out is just absurd. Hokes won a BCS Bowl game last year!! 

 
 
Well that just about sums up the current situation.  Thank BHF couldn't have said it any better myself!
 
GO BLUE!

The problem is this.
 
Hoke won with RR team the first year.  He kept the offense in tact, revamped the defense and we got a bit of luck.  Great.
 
This year was a transition year.  Still mostly RR's players, but the coaching and schemes are all Hokes.  RR's key players are graduating and Hoke doesn't have any of his own players in place (he gets a pass here by most fans).
 
Next year is Hoke's 3rd year, which coincidentally is the year RR got the axe.  Hoke should have most of his players in place and we should see how great all this mythical talent is.  Anything less then a Big10 championship is not acceptable, and we should beat ND and MSU, *or* just OSU (I wouldn't expect to sweep all three).
 
At some point, if Hoke's players can't start or don't have the talent, it's not going to be RR's fault.  You can only blame the last guy for so long.
 
 
 

jarnhestur


At some point, if Hoke's players can't start or don't have the talent, it's not going to be RR's fault.  You can only blame the last guy for so long.

 
Hoke's players HAVE been starting.  Not so much on offense, but there were quite a few out there making an impact on defense as TRUE freshmen! 
 
And it isn't all about just the players.  Sure, we had a lot of RichRod players left on the roster that have been big contributors both this year and last year.  The problem I have isn't with the RichRod players still on the roster.  It's how Rich Rod recruited and how he completely NEGLECTED certain positions especially in the trenches on BOTH sides of the football.  These holes that Hoke inherited aren't things that can be fixed in one or two recuiting classes, especially the glaring lack of depth on the o-line!  You can't expect freshmen and even sophomores in most cases to come in and start along the o-line and make an immediate impact.  Most o-linemen need at least a year to bulk up and get strong enough to handle the college game.  But because of Rich Rod neglecting this position, we are now forced to turn our hopes on the o-line to kids who just might not be fully ready yet, but we have no other options. 
 
Bottom line is, my problems with Rich Rod lie around what he didn't recruit.  These holes left by Rich Rod will take more than just two full recruiting classes to completely fix.  The holes are getting filled with quality recruits as evidenced by a top 5 class last year and the current #1 class this year,  but it isn't an overnight fix...

SC went from zero to hero in 5+ years of spurrier.....he wasn't exactly kicking but his first 3 years or so......what SC is now experiencing is an influx of spurriers recruiting, coaching, game planning and play calling with HIS players......

I keep bringing up SC comparisons, because I believe we are on the same path they were on a few years back.....in 2014-15 seasons, we are going to be super stout, if we keep on the current pace.

My problems with RR are similar.  His style of recruiting, the type of players he recruited, who didn't, etc.  I also wasn't a fan of his refusal to play defense.  
 
That doesn't excuse Hoke's refusal to develop an answer for the QB position.   It's a pretty important position that's really been all but neglected.  With Denard leaving, we're losing a lot of talent on the offense and I'm very concerned from what I've seen that we don't have enough talent waiting in the wings to make up for that.  
 
Again, we all expected some pain this year, but jeez - was winning the Big10 too much to ask?

jarnhestur


My problems with RR are similar.  His style of recruiting, the type of players he recruited, who didn't, etc.  I also wasn't a fan of his refusal to play defense.  

That doesn't excuse Hoke's refusal to develop an answer for the QB position.   It's a pretty important position that's really been all but neglected.  With Denard leaving, we're losing a lot of talent on the offense and I'm very concerned from what I've seen that we don't have enough talent waiting in the wings to make up for that.  

Again, we all expected some pain this year, but jeez - was winning the Big10 too much to ask?

 
Not exactly sure what you are talking about here?  Is Devin Gardner not going to be a viable option at QB for at least next year and possibly the next 2 years?  I think he showed he can lead this team moving forward and actually fits Borges' style of offense much better than Denard.  And then there's some kid named Shane Morris who's only one of the top rated passers coming out of high school this year who will be waiting in the wings after Devin graduates.  What more do you want?

Hoke might luck out with Gardner. Up until Denard got hurt, we didn't have anyone for next year, except some kid in high school. So, yeah, ignoring the QB position is accurate.

jarnhestur


Hoke might luck out with Gardner. Up until Denard got hurt, we didn't have anyone for next year, except some kid in high school. So, yeah, ignoring the QB position is accurate.

 
Hoke got lucky with Gardner?  Ummm, in case you missed it, Gardner was only the TOP ranked dual threat QB in the country coming out of high school.  He was also a top 10 QB overall.  The only reason he was asked to play receiver this year is because he is such a great athlete and we were so short on receivers that it would have been a waste to keep him on the sideline.
 
I would hardly call it luck to have a QB in waiting with the talent of Devin Gardner...

I think what hester is trying to say is up until the Nebraska game, Hoke had this unbelievable QB that was "waiting in the wings" lining up as a WR, and probably wasn't thinking about next season.

MattyGoBlue!

jarnhestur


At some point, if Hoke's players can't start or don't have the talent, it's not going to be RR's fault.  You can only blame the last guy for so long.

Hoke's players HAVE been starting.  Not so much on offense, but there were quite a few out there making an impact on defense as TRUE freshmen! 

And it isn't all about just the players.  Sure, we had a lot of RichRod players left on the roster that have been big contributors both this year and last year.  The problem I have isn't with the RichRod players still on the roster.  It's how Rich Rod recruited and how he completely NEGLECTED certain positions especially in the trenches on BOTH sides of the football.  These holes that Hoke inherited aren't things that can be fixed in one or two recuiting classes, especially the glaring lack of depth on the o-line!  You can't expect freshmen and even sophomores in most cases to come in and start along the o-line and make an immediate impact.  Most o-linemen need at least a year to bulk up and get strong enough to handle the college game.  But because of Rich Rod neglecting this position, we are now forced to turn our hopes on the o-line to kids who just might not be fully ready yet, but we have no other options. 

Bottom line is, my problems with Rich Rod lie around what he didn't recruit.  These holes left by Rich Rod will take more than just two full recruiting classes to completely fix.  The holes are getting filled with quality recruits as evidenced by a top 5 class last year and the current #1 class this year,  but it isn't an overnight fix...

It was a compounded problem.  Carr's last 2 years of recruiting were pathetic, leaving RR to play cacth-up.  Hence The Perfect Storm that we're still trying to recover from.

TK23Blue


It was a compounded problem.  Carr's last 2 years of recruiting were pathetic, leaving RR to play cacth-up.  Hence The Perfect Storm that we're still trying to recover from.

 
Oh, I agree there.  RichRod definitely wasn't left with a full cupboard by any means by Carr.  The Problem is, RichRod compounded the problem instead of trying to remedy it.

MattyGoBlue!

TK23Blue


It was a compounded problem.  Carr's last 2 years of recruiting were pathetic, leaving RR to play cacth-up.  Hence The Perfect Storm that we're still trying to recover from.

Oh, I agree there.  RichRod definitely wasn't left with a full cupboard by any means by Carr.  The Problem is, RichRod compounded the problem instead of trying to remedy it.

I wouldn't say he didn't try, I would say he tried and failed at landing guys like Jones, Graves, and Zettel. Compound with players like Lalota leaving and the fact that there were more pressing concerns in the 09 and 10 classes (namely at db and qb). Compound that with Brandon's complete mismanagement in firing RR which hurt recruiting horribly. It just was a perfect storm.