"This didn't have to happen"

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BigHouseFootball
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"This didn't have to happen" - Saturday, November 01, 2008 8:52 PM
This is a well written article about Michigan and the decision to hire Rich and I agree with every single word that is written. Bravo Lynn Henning, you have summe dup everything I have been saying since day one.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081101/OPINION03/811010439/1131/SPORTS0201
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BigBlue06
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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Saturday, November 01, 2008 9:23 PM
I'd like to know how the simple fundamentals of tackling would be different with a different head coach.  This offense put up 42 points today.  They actually looked like they understood the spread and I'm hopeful it will only get better.  However, the article didn't discuss that no matter what system is run on defense, no matter what system is run, that being able to tackle is THE number one thing that a football player is to learn on defense.  Learn how to wrap up a player.  I will hardly say that is a coaching problem.  

Seriously, what college coach spends 95% of their time teaching how to tackle?  It is assumed.  You should be able to wrap up a player 9 times out of 10 if you're playing D-I football.  

The offense (yes, the spread of RR) shined today.  The D laid an egg.  Get over yourself.  

The_Michigan_Man
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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Saturday, November 01, 2008 9:26 PM
If that's the case, then Michigan should have stayed away from Rich-Rod last December. The goods were here to have had at least a decent, bowl-worthy season in 2008.


Ok....so we hire someone inside the program, or maybe someone outside(which i dont know who we could have since alot of people already turned us down)  But hey, we could have gone to a bowl...YEAH!  I just want a bowl game...I dont want to be competive and go for a national title.  I still love the hire.  I dont throw in the towel after one season.  Some people may, and thats their choice.  But man can you at LEAST give this guy 2 seasons?  really...if he calls ANOTHER bad season I will defer to your position.  I will even say You told me so!  BUT...I want you to conciede that if RR pulls this around, YOU will defer and say you were wrong.  Dont know if you would be so willing to do so, swallowing pride and what not, but what if he does pull it around?!?!

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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Saturday, November 01, 2008 9:31 PM
He damn well better turn this around. I honestly think he will. I will take a season like this if Michigan is in the NC picture consistently in 2 years. Would everyone feel better if Michigan was destined for 8-4 seasons every year for the next 10 years? There is obviously no way to forecast what the future holds, but if Michigan has to take lumps the next 2 seasons to be a national power again, I think that is ok. I'll take a few tough seasons followed by a return to the national scene rather than mediocre seasons year after year.
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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Saturday, November 01, 2008 9:43 PM
Lynn Henning seems to have hit the nail on it's head.

This is sad, very sad..........................

DRBlue
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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Saturday, November 01, 2008 10:13 PM
I also think that Henning has pinpointed the issue.  Has RR done one thing this year that has justified his hire.  Can anyone out there identify one thing that he and the coaching staff have done to give this team a better chance to win ?  The much vaunted Barwis conditioning program appears to be vanishing as the 4th quarter collapses mount (Illinois, Toledo, Penn State, MSU and now Purdue).   

I am also getting fed up with those who say that we just need to accept this season as a failure and that next year will improve.  Where is the evidence that this team will improve ?  The defense is getting worse by the game, getting lit up by a 3rd string QB who was a running back two weeks ago.  Purdue, who scored 41 points in the last 4 games, hits us for 48 today.  Can someone please tell me the source of their optimism for next year and the future of M football under RR ?  He has certainly done nothing to justify a 6 year contract !!!

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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Saturday, November 01, 2008 10:34 PM
All of our experience lays on the defensive side of the ball. That too, will be gone next year. At this point, I really can't imagine this team being competitive on a national level for at least 3 years. 2-10, 4-8, 6-6. That's my guess for the next 3 seasons, pending more decommits from highly needed recruits, which I expect.

He can't win or compete without a certain type of football player, that pretty much wreaks of failure in itself.

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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Saturday, November 01, 2008 11:24 PM
Yeah it is an ok article, but he fails to mention the continued pattern of success he IS still following today. 3-9 type first season, then sizeable improvements yearly. Let's not write of the entire Michigan football program yet. He is still in year #1 of his tenure, and let his pattern of SUCCESS have a chance to blossom.

Oh and remember, Coach K would have been fire from Michigan his first 4 seasons. I know, I know apples to oranges in the sports side, but it's the same theory base.

BigHouseFootball
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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Sunday, November 02, 2008 12:11 AM
The_Michigan_Man


OkOk....so we hire someone inside the program, or maybe someone outside(which dontdont know who we could have sialotalot.YEAH!  I just want a bowl game...I dont want to be competive and go for a national title.  


Actdonty, I'd take competitivecompetive.

The whole point of the article is that you could have hired any other coach and the "transition" would have be minimal. 7-5 or 8-4 in the first season and then built from there. We didn't have to go through the worst season in the 129 year history of Michigan football.

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Wolverine4Life
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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Sunday, November 02, 2008 12:49 AM
I just want to know why any other coach would have been better. Mallett was already thinking about leaving. AA and MM were gone no matter what. No telling what the linemen would have done under a different coach, but I don't know if they would have made that big of a difference at this point. With what we have this year, I don't know that any coach in the nation could have taken this team to a bowl game. The fumbles and missed tackles are not due to coaching. It was been stressed repeatedly in practice and most of them are barely forced. Maybe our offense would be a little better and maybe we beat Toledo and Purdue. But I really can't see any coach taking this team to a bowl game unless they squeeked out a 6-6 record. And personally, I would take 2 losing seasons if it meant we turned into a USC type program (in terms of football, not the off-field stuff for those that are going to nitpick). It's pretty assinine to expect us to never have another losing season and always make a bowl game. We're up there with the longest streaks in history, but all good things come to an end. I'm not happy with this season by any means or the blown chances in second halves. We need to get better. But we have shown improvement on offense and we have protected the ball better lately. I don't know what is going on with the defense lately, but maybe they are wearing down after spending about 35 min per game on the field. Maybe they just aren't as good as we thought they were. Or maybe Shafer is trying to give us heart attacks by playing soft zone and rushing 3 on every third down!?!? I just think it's still too early to call this a mistake.
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WolvyMike
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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Sunday, November 02, 2008 1:15 AM
it's obvious that a lot of people got spoiled over the last 30 years.

Miami......fell off
FSU......fell off
Notre Dame.....fell off
Bama......fell off (until now)


all the great schools have gone through some low points.  keep the faith, stay the course, blah blah blah.  the future is bright.  and if it's not, screw that, it is!
 

"ALL IN FOR MICHIGAN"

MichFan4Life
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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Sunday, November 02, 2008 1:35 AM
Wolverine316


it's obvious that a lot of people got spoiled over the last 30 years.

Miami......fell off
FSU......fell off
Notre Dame.....fell off
Bama......fell off (until now)


all the great schools have gone through some low points.  keep the faith, stay the course, blah blah blah.  the future is bright.  and if it's not, screw that, it is!


Truer words have never been spoken, your list just scratches the surface of how many major programs have gone through a period of decline. I`m not sure why some Michigan fans think that Michigan was some how immune from a decline. We've been in a period of slow death since 2000, and have only been saved from losing seasons before this one by the heroics of guys like Braylon, Mario, Hart, and Henne. In truth we should have had 1 maybe 2 losing seasons before this one. This was coming no matter what, maybe not as bad as things are now, but a decline was coming for sure(and I`m not talking about a 7-5 type season being a decline). Yes we could have hired someone that would have made an easier transition, but that would not have kept us from going under. Lets not forget that before RR contacted Martin, Michigan had egg on its face from two very public "thanks but no thanks" from two hire profile coaches/highly successful coaches.  I`m sorry but hiring Brady Hoke or the guy from Iowa would not have fixed the problems at Michigan, yeah we may have gone 10-3 eventually but that would have been our ceiling. We needed someone to do more than get us over the hump, because in truth we were never close to the hump to begin with(you can cite 2003, or 2006 all you want, the truth is at the end of the day what was actually accomplished in those seasons?)
 
We needed monumental change, and now we have it. Change is often hard, and huge changes are usually ugly and we're seeing a lot of that right now. Michigan fans need to be thankful that our decline will only last a few years as oppose to some other programs that have gone through 5-10 years of decline. Unlike programs like Nebraska or Miami we didn't have one coach leave and replace him with a worse or equal coach. We hired a consenses great coach, who only needs time and has proven himself again and again. RR's 1st year at schools are often ugly, but his teams steadily get better. Why some people chose to ignore that fact I don't know, but his record speaks for itself and there is no reason to believe the same won't happen at Michigan where he has access to better resources than he's had anywhere else.


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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Sunday, November 02, 2008 10:24 AM
BigHouseFootball


The_Michigan_Man


OkOk....so we hire someone inside the program, or maybe someone outside(which dontdont know who we could have sialotalot.YEAH!  I just want a bowl game...I dont want to be competive and go for a national title.  


Actdonty, I'd take competitivecompetive.

The whole point of the article is that you could have hired any other coach and the "transition" would have be minimal. 7-5 or 8-4 in the first season and then built from there. We didn't have to go through the worst season in the 129 year history of Michigan football.


BHF, you still haven't answered my question to you; who did you want as our head coach? And you can't say Carr or Bo, they weren't options!
 
Now onto the thread. I do not see, given the talent, or lack there of, how huddling, putting Threet under center, and the tackles' hands on the ground, this team wins 8 games. By hiring a coach that would do that, there is no "transition." And if we're not going to attempt to "transition," could you say before the season that Michigan football was heading in the right direction? Don't know who said it, but "if you're not getting better, you're getting worse." After last years horrid start, the program was not getting better.
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bluecanuck
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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Sunday, November 02, 2008 12:05 PM
I think it's a well-written article. I think it contains a whack-load of truth. A good coach doesn't win only when he has all the tools he needs for his "system. " I don't know how you can argue against that very simple statement. And please, please, please do not start trotting out the fact that our offense scored 35 points yesterday. Putting up 35 against that Purdue defense is nothing to brag about... especially when we racked up a grand total of 26 points against Toledo and Miami-Ohio combined. Maybe the offense is getting a bit more each week. But no transition should doom a team as talented as UM to a 2-win season. I place this responsibility directly at the feet of the coaching staff.  

BigHouseFootball
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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Sunday, November 02, 2008 12:43 PM
Well, lets see. I would have liked Les Miles, Brady Hoke, or Ron English to be the coach. Would the team have to adapt to this new coach? You bet. Would we have been sitting here at 2-7? No chance. For one, the system these guys run would have fit the players already here at UM, and two, they would have identified this team's strengths and played to them. Instead we got a coach who said this is what we are going to run and I don't care if you guys aren't built to run it, or how many games we lose, or how bad we look, this is it.

And keep telling yourself that Mallett was 100% gone after last season. If you say it enough it becomes true in your mind.
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GoBlueWalls
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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Sunday, November 02, 2008 12:46 PM
Thank you canuck you just proved my point for me. For all you out there whining about improvement, Purdue is probably on equal par with miami and toledo this year, and we put up 26 points combined on them, and 42 on purdue. And don't give me, "oh but their defense was bad!" We haven't played a good defense this year. Everyone who has wanted RR canned has stated it's because they saw no improvement. If that's not improvement I gotta go back to first grade.
Don't remember clausen from last year. that clausen will be gone soon enough. By the time he has developed a little bit and the domers o-line isnt scrip scrap he will most likely be phenomenal, no matter how much we'll all try to overlook it.

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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Sunday, November 02, 2008 12:49 PM
BigHouseFootball


Well, lets see. I would have liked Les Miles, Brady Hoke, or Ron English to be the coach. Would the team have to adapt to this new coach? You bet. Would we have been sitting here at 2-7? No chance. For one, the system these guys run would have fit the players already here at UM, and two, they would have identified this team's strengths and played to them. Instead we got a coach who said this is what we are going to run and I don't care if you guys aren't built to run it, or how many games we lose, or how bad we look, this is it.

And keep telling yourself that Mallett was 100% gone after last season. If you say it enough it becomes true in your mind.





Keep telling yourself he wasn't, you might be able to sleep a little bit better.
Don't remember clausen from last year. that clausen will be gone soon enough. By the time he has developed a little bit and the domers o-line isnt scrip scrap he will most likely be phenomenal, no matter how much we'll all try to overlook it.

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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Sunday, November 02, 2008 1:09 PM


"This didn't have to happen"


Yes it did.

Tiger Woods was the best player in the world in 1997.  What did he do after that?  He changed his swing to become better and didn't win a major for 2 years.

Then, he wasn't satisfied and changed his swing again to become better.  He could have continued to play and win, but he wanted to be the best.

Michigan is no different.  For all of you that want to continue watching Michigan win 8-9 games a year, that's great and that's what you would have got with English or Hoke or another coach from within.  However, I'll take Tiger Woods approach to become the best and not just be satisfied.

Change is hard.  It's not easy and it takes time.  I just hope that you're back here in 3 years celebrating a NC with all of us that stayed the course.
The division between the Rich Rod supporters and the Rich Rod bashers/Carr supporters is amazing and has turned this place upside down.

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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Sunday, November 02, 2008 1:28 PM
BigHouseFootball


Well, lets see. I would have liked Les Miles, Brady Hoke, or Ron English to be the coach. Would the team have to adapt to this new coach? You bet. Would we have been sitting here at 2-7? No chance. For one, the system these guys run would have fit the players already here at UM, and two, they would have identified this team's strengths and played to them. Instead we got a coach who said this is what we are going to run and I don't care if you guys aren't built to run it, or how many games we lose, or how bad we look, this is it.

And keep telling yourself that Mallett was 100% gone after last season. If you say it enough it becomes true in your mind.


When Hoke's name was mentioned last year most people on this board had a fit.  Yes his system is probably more adaptable to what Michigan had, but not necessarily to what Michigan has.  No coach is going to when when the defense can not stop people on third down.  18 of the last 36 3rd down attempts by Michigan opponents have resulted in first downs. 

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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Sunday, November 02, 2008 2:52 PM
BigHouseFootball


Well, lets see. I would have liked Les Miles, Brady Hoke, or Ron English to be the coach. Would the team have to adapt to this new coach? You bet. Would we have been sitting here at 2-7? No chance. For one, the system these guys run would have fit the players already here at UM, and two, they would have identified this team's strengths and played to them. Instead we got a coach who said this is what we are going to run and I don't care if you guys aren't built to run it, or how many games we lose, or how bad we look, this is it.

And keep telling yourself that Mallett was 100% gone after last season. If you say it enough it becomes true in your mind.


The Miles ship had already sailed, he doesn't count.


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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Sunday, November 02, 2008 3:05 PM
BlueWalls... I not saying you have to go back to grade one... but to call a single game's output against a poor defense as a definite sign of  improvement seems just a little premature. 

And the Tiger Woods reference is silly. Tiger didn't completely drop off the radar as we have done. He struggled to win... but remained very competitive. I don't think anyone on this board would claim the same for UM football this year.    

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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Sunday, November 02, 2008 3:11 PM
bluecanuck


BlueWalls... I not saying you have to go back to grade one... but to call a single game's output against a poor defense as a definite sign of  improvement seems just a little premature. 

And the Tiger Woods reference is silly. Tiger didn't completely drop off the radar as we have done. He struggled to win... but remained very competitive. I don't think anyone on this board would claim the same for UM football this year.    


How is that not improvement? If one game you score a 130 in bowling and the next game you score 170 is that not improvement? Maybe your sending the wrong person back to grade one.

Also the Tiger Woods reference is perfect. Have we not been competitive this year? We haven't won but I'm not sure how you measure what competitive means.

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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Sunday, November 02, 2008 3:21 PM
The slight improvement in offense is more than offset by a stunning deterioration on the defensive side of the ball.  What looked like a fairly good defense in game one against Utah is now a complete disgrace.  Purdue, using a 3rd string QB and having scored 41 points in its prior 4 games, put up 48 against us with 522 yards of total offense.  It doesn't help to have improvement in one area and watch other areas fall apart.
 
On a second note, posters here lament tackling and fumbling as not a sign of coaching.  I disagree completely.  Read the books of Bo, Woody and Lombardi about ball security and sure tackling.  It is all about discipline and coaching, which this team is sorely lacking.

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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Sunday, November 02, 2008 3:29 PM
Iowa. Harsh. I was never sending anybody back to grade one. But if you think a single isolated positive event is a sign of improvement... I think you are wrong. If UM continues to put points up on the board for the rest of the year... I'll agree. Even more... if they actually put up points against a good defense... then I'll be totally on board.

I teach grade six. So, i can't say anything about the grade one curriculum. But I know in grade six we know that you can't call anything a trend until you have more than a single instance that deviates from what was the norm. Maybe try grade six.
 
And no... 2-7 is not competitive in a league widely considered to be one of the weakest "power" conferences. Sticking around long enough to lose by a touchdown or two in every game is a positive sign only if you're grasping at straws... or a mid-level football power that has never really enjoyed any degree of sustained success. 

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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Sunday, November 02, 2008 3:44 PM
The thing I love, is a lot of people are putting it all on RR shoulders. I will restate what has already been said. The defense isnt tackling, and the quarterback play throughout the season has been pittiful. You cant run his offense with a unskilled QB who struggles to make good decisions. The only thing I have truly been dissapointed with was Shafer. Just a few things here and there and we could have at least 2 or 3 more wins at this point. Next year people will be pleased and the peace will some what be returned.
wolverine4life:
cheer for Michigan all the way? BS! You like all the other RRod haters avoid every topic about the positive, but the minute we decline, you guys come out of your caves and have a man loving bash fest with each other.

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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Sunday, November 02, 2008 4:08 PM
This article contains some of the same type of thinking that has been repeatedly brought up on this board, and needless to say, I simply don't understand it.


But if that was going to be the case in 2008 -- and he should have seen it coming -- then it should not have been the end of the world to have stuck with a more conventional offense that would have taken advantage of Michigan's existing personnel, which was plenty good.


Right because our unconventional offense cost us the game on Saturday... 42 points!  Against an admittedly bad Purdue team, but still, 42 points! 

Listen, the offense has struggled, OBVIOUSLY.  I will not for one second say that it hasn't cost us football games this year, it has, but so too have other facets of this team.  Raise your hand if you feel that offensive struggles were unexpected entering this season.  Yet again in this article we have a "fact" that is nothing more than a "belief" that this team would somehow be better by running different sets.  Again, the thinking here is that somehow the transition to this offense would be better accomplished by simply delaying its implementation.  I don't agree with that, I don't agree that the transition would somehow be smoother by waiting to run the offense that this staff runs.  Auburn ditched their offense halfway through the year and have they suddenly become a solid offensive football team??  After firing their OC on October 8th, they've put up 22, 17, and 7 points... losing all three contests.  A huge jump in production over their previous set of games.... or not at all.

I don't understand the thinking that says our suspect line would somehow block better in a pro-set, and our young QB would somehow be more accurate (as if the routes are somehow different), and our receivers would be more open.


The goods were here to have had at least a decent, bowl-worthy season in 2008.


I don't think this is a valid point, it's nothing but conjecture and yet I keep seeing people continue to recite it as fact.  It's as though we played 2008, got into the DeLorean, came back, and played it in a pro set just to compare.  I guess I missed the memo about the trip back.  Last year's team was going to win the National title too....


It's not personnel. It's what's happening to it that scares the bejabbers out of anyone who knew that Michigan in 2008 was not dealing with an empty cupboard.


The fullness of the cupboard isn't the issue, everyone here understood the number of starters coming back, but the new players quality was unproven and unknown.  The areas of the team that weren't empty (d-line, corners, and running backs) have seen their shares of ups and downs, and the ones that have been mismanaged the worst in my opinion are on the defensive side of the football.


There were areas that needed help -- offensive line, secondary, etc. -- but as many areas as the teams that have beaten Michigan in 2008 faced coming into this autumn?


Name an opponent that returned less starters please.  We all know the loss to Toledo was inexcusable, everyone here understands that... of course so too was the loss to App State the year prior with a FAR better football team. 


There was no need to write off Rodriguez's inaugural season simply because he lacked a true spread-offense quarterback.


Yep that's all we lacked, a qb.... and an o-line, and a group of safeties, and a cohesive group at linebacker, and experience at the receiver spot.  Let's run down that starting lineup eh?  No team in the country has freshmen contributing a higher percentage to their yardage... but hey, all we needed was a spread QB and this team would be gravy.  I don't think so.  One player doesn't make a team, there are a number of areas that need addressing here.

You want to know one area where I think scheme is costing this football team?  It ain't on the offense.  Take a gander on the other side of the football, where this gentlemen actually questions the level of effort of the players... as if they aren't playing their butts off every Saturday.  Purdue had the football for.... 38 minutes Saturday.  Did the D quit?  Nope.  Did the defensive staff make ONE adjustment?  ONE?!  No.  It's this erroneous notion that the offense alone is costing us games that I don't get, our defense is giving up more points per game than we've seen in a LONG time (over 30 points a game at this point I believe).


Michigan's football fire has been snuffed in ways that extend far beyond the scoreboard and won-loss column.


I haven't seen this team quit once this year, I haven't seen this team do anything that makes me question their "fire".  His "proof"?  That after a blown coverage that lead to a TD, two of the players in the secondary looked at each other... GASP!!!!  That NEVER happens on teams that are doing well.... or it happens on every blown coverage I've ever seen, I can't remember.

I saw a 2-6 football team play its butt off on Saturday, I saw a team that was handcuffed by its scheme on defense (yes I actually can disagree with schemes), I saw a team that had every opportunity (again) to pack it in and quit, and instead they drove down and tied the game with a minute to go after blowing not one, but two 14 point leads.  That they lost is a product of missed tackles, a gift TD on a dropped punt, and some darn solid Purdue play-calling to end the football game.  It was not a result of doused fire, it was not a result of lack-luster effort.

Here's what worries me right now, and it's the defensive side of the football.  Anyone who actually watches this team can see how this offense will be able to move the football, it's the short-comings of the D that have me concerned.  I cannot believe that we continually trotted the 3-3-5 out there time and again, I simply cannot understand the thinking behind it, and Rodriguez needs to explain why in God's sweet name we didn't change up after being rung like a bell for 270 yards in the first half alone.  Why you would limit the BEST group of players on the team (the d-line) and give a true freshman all day is inexplicable.  We can get to QBs with four down linemen, you don't have to sacrifice the ridiculously soft coverage with our D-line.  Instead you put 3 down-linemen in the game, let Purdue double team people like Jamison and Graham or allow a lineman to pick up a blitzer, and give the kid all day to make very simple throws. 

He also needs to explain why this team CONTINIUES to be unable to tackle anyone on first contact.  Sadly this problem is not new, we saw that with Herrmann, we saw it with English, and we're seeing it now with Shafer.  It's damning that it continues, and I think Rodriguez and Shafer have to answer for it.  It's November, you learn to tackle in pee-wee football, why are we still bouncing off guys on 3rd and 7 when we have them stopped short only to allow drives to continue?

I am concerned with Rodriguez on the following fronts:
1. Lack of defensive adjustment
2. Bringing in Shafer, who so far has not lived up to his "stop me before I blitz again" billing
3. Not making it crystal clear to Threet that he HAS to keep the football on the read-option for the offense to continue to be effective, Threet was not an option QB, you have to instruct him what to do.  The offense actually looks competent when he is a threat to keep the football.
4. Again on the defense... I just don't get our approach.  In situations where we should've been in press coverage and forcing their qb to make plays yesterday we sat back in a soft zone and gave him all day.
5. Fundamental deficiencies: our turnover problem has cost us more football games than our 3-and-out prone offense this year, our tackling problem has cost us time and again as well.  That sort of stuff all falls under "the little things teams do to win".  Frankly, our deficiencies here are unacceptable.  The players and the coaches have to take responsibility here.

I have faith that this offense will grow into something special in the future, you are free to disagree as you like.  What worries me is just how ineffective our defense has been and how we haven't been able to address or adjust to its deficiencies as the year has gone on.  That falls on Rodriguez and that falls on Shafer.

I do not, however, question this team's heart.
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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Sunday, November 02, 2008 4:10 PM
Actually yes, sticking around in EVERY ball game to only fall apart later is the definition of being competitive. And I'd agree with you about improvement if we had scored  42 in the 3rd week and then reset back to puttin up 20. But to choke up all year against pretty bad defenses, then to all of a sudden come out and actually start to get it is definitly considered improvement. I don't care how many points we put up on any other team or any other defense this year. The players are starting to understand the system. Now that they've had 9 months in it they are starting to get more used to it and instead of hearing the play call, thinking about what their assignment is on the play, then going out and doing it, they hear the play, line up and run it. Thats making the whole system look faster, and once that starts clicking in with a d-coordinator that can actually defend mediocre teams we will be very very good.
Don't remember clausen from last year. that clausen will be gone soon enough. By the time he has developed a little bit and the domers o-line isnt scrip scrap he will most likely be phenomenal, no matter how much we'll all try to overlook it.

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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Sunday, November 02, 2008 4:12 PM
Just so I'm clear on what has been posted in this thread because I think we may have gone from simply obtuse to utterly absurd...

English, Hoke and Miles would have done better because the "system these guys run would have better fit the players".

Hmm...

Well, English was a DC, so I'm not sure how anyone can know what system he would have run on offense.  I'm sure his D would have been better.  Heck, Herrmann probably would have been better than Shafer, but that has nothing to do with the offense.

I don't know that we're even sure Hoke would've taken the job if offered and if he did, we have no idea who he would've chosen as his assistants.  Perhaps some of his current assistants would have stayed in Muncie and vied for to be the HC there.

Miles, apparently didn't want the job, so what he "would" have done is academic.  

But why stop at Miles, or even Lloyd for comparisons?  How would Fielding Yost have done with this team?  It's about as relevant as the other suppositions that have been passing for analysis all season.

As far as this being the worst season in the history of Michigan football, I suggest doing a modicum of research on the program's history.  It's funny that one of the largest bones of contention with RR is that he doesn't understand the history and tradition of this program, yet some of those who make such claims then show they don't quite know as much as they think they do with inaccurate and outlandish generalizations.  

I would say the 1-7 1934 team was worse, but that's just me.  the team's only win coming against even more hapless GA Tech who ended up 1-9.  That Michigan team was also out-scored 143-21, but certainly don't allow any pesky facts to get in the way of baseless arguments. 
   Free TK   

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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Sunday, November 02, 2008 5:08 PM
ScottsdaleBlue




"This didn't have to happen"


  For all of you that want to continue watching Michigan win 8-9 games a year, that's great and that's what you would have got with English or Hoke or another coach from within.  


Scottsdale is right.. 
  

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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Sunday, November 02, 2008 6:55 PM
Henning's yet another hack. "The sky is falling" yes it is, and that's what happens when you change things to such an extent. The difference between us and say, Nebraska, is that Rod is a good coach. Lets give him a chance to straighten things out. Les Miles, Hoke, whoever, he's better that those coaches.

If theres anybody on the hot seat, it's Shafer.




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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Sunday, November 02, 2008 7:56 PM
scmgoblue


This article contains some of the same type of thinking that has been repeatedly brought up on this board, and needless to say, I simply don't understand it.


But if that was going to be the case in 2008 -- and he should have seen it coming -- then it should not have been the end of the world to have stuck with a more conventional offense that would have taken advantage of Michigan's existing personnel, which was plenty good.


Right because our unconventional offense cost us the game on Saturday... 42 points!  Against an admittedly bad Purdue team, but still, 42 points! 

Listen, the offense has struggled, OBVIOUSLY.  I will not for one second say that it hasn't cost us football games this year, it has, but so too have other facets of this team.  Raise your hand if you feel that offensive struggles were unexpected entering this season.  Yet again in this article we have a "fact" that is nothing more than a "belief" that this team would somehow be better by running different sets.  Again, the thinking here is that somehow the transition to this offense would be better accomplished by simply delaying its implementation.  I don't agree with that, I don't agree that the transition would somehow be smoother by waiting to run the offense that this staff runs.  Auburn ditched their offense halfway through the year and have they suddenly become a solid offensive football team??  After firing their OC on October 8th, they've put up 22, 17, and 7 points... losing all three contests.  A huge jump in production over their previous set of games.... or not at all.

I don't understand the thinking that says our suspect line would somehow block better in a pro-set, and our young QB would somehow be more accurate (as if the routes are somehow different), and our receivers would be more open.


The goods were here to have had at least a decent, bowl-worthy season in 2008.


I don't think this is a valid point, it's nothing but conjecture and yet I keep seeing people continue to recite it as fact.  It's as though we played 2008, got into the DeLorean, came back, and played it in a pro set just to compare.  I guess I missed the memo about the trip back.  Last year's team was going to win the National title too....


It's not personnel. It's what's happening to it that scares the bejabbers out of anyone who knew that Michigan in 2008 was not dealing with an empty cupboard.


The fullness of the cupboard isn't the issue, everyone here understood the number of starters coming back, but the new players quality was unproven and unknown.  The areas of the team that weren't empty (d-line, corners, and running backs) have seen their shares of ups and downs, and the ones that have been mismanaged the worst in my opinion are on the defensive side of the football.


There were areas that needed help -- offensive line, secondary, etc. -- but as many areas as the teams that have beaten Michigan in 2008 faced coming into this autumn?


Name an opponent that returned less starters please.  We all know the loss to Toledo was inexcusable, everyone here understands that... of course so too was the loss to App State the year prior with a FAR better football team. 


There was no need to write off Rodriguez's inaugural season simply because he lacked a true spread-offense quarterback.


Yep that's all we lacked, a qb.... and an o-line, and a group of safeties, and a cohesive group at linebacker, and experience at the receiver spot.  Let's run down that starting lineup eh?  No team in the country has freshmen contributing a higher percentage to their yardage... but hey, all we needed was a spread QB and this team would be gravy.  I don't think so.  One player doesn't make a team, there are a number of areas that need addressing here.

You want to know one area where I think scheme is costing this football team?  It ain't on the offense.  Take a gander on the other side of the football, where this gentlemen actually questions the level of effort of the players... as if they aren't playing their butts off every Saturday.  Purdue had the football for.... 38 minutes Saturday.  Did the D quit?  Nope.  Did the defensive staff make ONE adjustment?  ONE?!  No.  It's this erroneous notion that the offense alone is costing us games that I don't get, our defense is giving up more points per game than we've seen in a LONG time (over 30 points a game at this point I believe).


Michigan's football fire has been snuffed in ways that extend far beyond the scoreboard and won-loss column.


I haven't seen this team quit once this year, I haven't seen this team do anything that makes me question their "fire".  His "proof"?  That after a blown coverage that lead to a TD, two of the players in the secondary looked at each other... GASP!!!!  That NEVER happens on teams that are doing well.... or it happens on every blown coverage I've ever seen, I can't remember.

I saw a 2-6 football team play its butt off on Saturday, I saw a team that was handcuffed by its scheme on defense (yes I actually can disagree with schemes), I saw a team that had every opportunity (again) to pack it in and quit, and instead they drove down and tied the game with a minute to go after blowing not one, but two 14 point leads.  That they lost is a product of missed tackles, a gift TD on a dropped punt, and some darn solid Purdue play-calling to end the football game.  It was not a result of doused fire, it was not a result of lack-luster effort.

Here's what worries me right now, and it's the defensive side of the football.  Anyone who actually watches this team can see how this offense will be able to move the football, it's the short-comings of the D that have me concerned.  I cannot believe that we continually trotted the 3-3-5 out there time and again, I simply cannot understand the thinking behind it, and Rodriguez needs to explain why in God's sweet name we didn't change up after being rung like a bell for 270 yards in the first half alone.  Why you would limit the BEST group of players on the team (the d-line) and give a true freshman all day is inexplicable.  We can get to QBs with four down linemen, you don't have to sacrifice the ridiculously soft coverage with our D-line.  Instead you put 3 down-linemen in the game, let Purdue double team people like Jamison and Graham or allow a lineman to pick up a blitzer, and give the kid all day to make very simple throws. 

He also needs to explain why this team CONTINIUES to be unable to tackle anyone on first contact.  Sadly this problem is not new, we saw that with Herrmann, we saw it with English, and we're seeing it now with Shafer.  It's damning that it continues, and I think Rodriguez and Shafer have to answer for it.  It's November, you learn to tackle in pee-wee football, why are we still bouncing off guys on 3rd and 7 when we have them stopped short only to allow drives to continue?

I am concerned with Rodriguez on the following fronts:
1. Lack of defensive adjustment
2. Bringing in Shafer, who so far has not lived up to his "stop me before I blitz again" billing
3. Not making it crystal clear to Threet that he HAS to keep the football on the read-option for the offense to continue to be effective, Threet was not an option QB, you have to instruct him what to do.  The offense actually looks competent when he is a threat to keep the football.
4. Again on the defense... I just don't get our approach.  In situations where we should've been in press coverage and forcing their qb to make plays yesterday we sat back in a soft zone and gave him all day.
5. Fundamental deficiencies: our turnover problem has cost us more football games than our 3-and-out prone offense this year, our tackling problem has cost us time and again as well.  That sort of stuff all falls under "the little things teams do to win".  Frankly, our deficiencies here are unacceptable.  The players and the coaches have to take responsibility here.

I have faith that this offense will grow into something special in the future, you are free to disagree as you like.  What worries me is just how ineffective our defense has been and how we haven't been able to address or adjust to its deficiencies as the year has gone on.  That falls on Rodriguez and that falls on Shafer.

I do not, however, question this team's heart.


THANK YOU SCM ESPECIALLY WITH YOUR DEFENSIVE ASSESSMENT,DRIVES ME ABSOLUTLY NUTS THAT THEY DON'T WRAP UP AND RUSH THREE!
"Every time I come to Michigan all they want to do is Screw me, Screw me Screw me"! Wayne Hayes AKA the devil.

Wolverine24
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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Sunday, November 02, 2008 8:15 PM
I would be willing to to take this kind of a season if Michigan has great success in the future and consistently goes undefeated at home and competes for national championships.

However, I have seen nothing that leads me to believe that Rich Rod will compete for NCs at Michigan. He will probably only win 8-10 games at best per year just as Lloyd did, but with losing seasons as well!!! At least Lloyd won 8-10 games per year without losing seasons.

Do I want Lloyd back? NO!! What I wanted was Lloyd gone and someone else who runs a regular pro-set and has a spread offensive package only when needed and is a great game day coach, and is great at teaching tough, physical, mistake free fundamental football. Rich Rod does not do any of that. And on top of all that, he has never fielded a good defensive team. Defense wins championships!!!

At West Virginia, he couldn't even beat lowly Pitt at HOME, which cost him a trip to the NC game. And the Big Ten has much better defenses than the Big Least!!! If he never went to an NC game at WVU and couldn't even beat lowly Pitt, what makes you think he will do it at Michigan when he refuses to understand the Michigan tradition, and refuses to adjust his system to fit his personnel??

DRBlue
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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Sunday, November 02, 2008 9:13 PM
Wolverine24, from your description of an ideal coach, it sounds like you want Tressel and so do I.  Unfortunately, the coach up in East Lansing looks much more like Tressel than the coach in Ann Arbor. 

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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Sunday, November 02, 2008 9:35 PM
Yeah, lets get the vest, That's the key to all our problems.....probably the worst big game coach out there, he's a choker. I'll pass.

coach rod will be fine with a good DC.....give it a chance




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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Sunday, November 02, 2008 9:59 PM
Wolverine Football


Yeah, lets get the vest, That's the key to all our problems.....probably the worst big game coach out there, he's a choker. I'll pass.

coach rod will be fine with a good DC.....give it a chance


Better to get to the Big Game and lose than never get to one.  Tressel has 1 NC and two runner-ups, better than most coaches.  I would take Tressel over RR in a heartbeat.

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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Sunday, November 02, 2008 10:29 PM
DRBlue


Wolverine Football


Yeah, lets get the vest, That's the key to all our problems.....probably the worst big game coach out there, he's a choker. I'll pass.

coach rod will be fine with a good DC.....give it a chance


Better to get to the Big Game and lose than never get to one.  Tressel has 1 NC and two runner-ups, better than most coaches.  I would take Tressel over RR in a heartbeat.


Better to get to a big game? They didnt have to do anything to schedual USC, and not show up for it.
wolverine4life:
cheer for Michigan all the way? BS! You like all the other RRod haters avoid every topic about the positive, but the minute we decline, you guys come out of your caves and have a man loving bash fest with each other.

Wolverine24
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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Sunday, November 02, 2008 10:37 PM
Eric72GoBlue


DRBlue


Wolverine Football


Yeah, lets get the vest, That's the key to all our problems.....probably the worst big game coach out there, he's a choker. I'll pass.

coach rod will be fine with a good DC.....give it a chance


Better to get to the Big Game and lose than never get to one.  Tressel has 1 NC and two runner-ups, better than most coaches.  I would take Tressel over RR in a heartbeat.


Better to get to a big game? They didnt have to do anything to schedual USC, and not show up for it.


OSU's talent was no match for USC's talent. That game was not Tressel's fault. Plus the game was at USC.

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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:41 PM
Wolverine24



OSU's talent was no match for USC's talent. That game was not Tressel's fault. Plus the game was at USC.


Oh, so it's okay for Ohio St. to use the "talent card" but not Michigan????  How does our talent match up this year????

One more thing, how did Lloyd do with all that talent last year against App St. and Oregon????
The division between the Rich Rod supporters and the Rich Rod bashers/Carr supporters is amazing and has turned this place upside down.

ScottsdaleBlue
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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:53 PM
bluecanuck


BlueWalls... I not saying you have to go back to grade one... but to call a single game's output against a poor defense as a definite sign of  improvement seems just a little premature. 

And the Tiger Woods reference is silly. Tiger didn't completely drop off the radar as we have done. He struggled to win... but remained very competitive. I don't think anyone on this board would claim the same for UM football this year.    


Who said that Michigan has dropped off the radar?  Michigan is competitive and making changes to be better in the future.  That's what good programs do.  That's what good businesses do.  They make adjustments and try to get better.

For years people have been CRYING for change at Michigan.

For years people have asked this program to jump into the 21st century of football.

Now that we have, you guys want to jump back to the 18th century.

Makes no sense.

Can't have your cake and eat it too.  There has to be some give.

scm said it best when he commented on how all the Rich Rod haters somehow can predict as fact that this team would be 8-4, 9-3 with another coach when their is no proof to that at all.

So, if we were running a "traditional" offense that many have said would make us win more games, would that help RG David Moosman from getting his ass kicked against Illinois the entire game?  How would the "stretch run play" work with RT Stephen Schilling 3 yards in the backfield?  What about C David Molk holding on the backside stretch run?
 
Steven Threet is 99th in the country in yards/game.  He's dead last in QB rating.  He's dead last in completion %.  He's dead last in yards/attempt.
 
Michigan is 111th in turnover margin.  We have lost 13 fumbles.
 
Michigan is 108th in 1st downs.
 
Michigan is 119th in 3rd down conversations.
 
Michigan is 116th in time of possession.
 
Michigan is 111th in Total Offense.
 
In Ron English's cover 2 defense, would Stevie Brown pursue the ball better than he does in Shafer's cover 2 defense?  Would Marell Evans take a better angle at the RB out of the backfield against Utah in another defense instead of watching him run down the sideline open on 3rd and long?

I have yet to see anyone show me how this team would win 6,7,8 games with the current roster....People talk about it, but no one has given any examples.

You can talk about the system, the system, the system, but I think this season has proven that the system is not the reason we can't tackle, hold onto the ball, complete passes, etc.

Can someone please answer my questions about David Moosman getting beat off the ball the entire game against Illinois.  Stephen Schilling get beat around the corner on the pass rush.  It happened last year in our traditional offense.  It happens in the new spread offense we run this year.  Is there some offense out there that I don't know about that does not entail offensive lineman to block? 

Scmgoblue has asked the question.  I have asked the question.  Anyone have an answer????

Go Blue!!


The division between the Rich Rod supporters and the Rich Rod bashers/Carr supporters is amazing and has turned this place upside down.

maize3561
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Re:"This didn't have to happen" - Monday, November 03, 2008 12:09 AM
So bhf you were a big fan of 8 and 4.?  Because all of your choices would have done just that.  The talent was here why didnt RR win with it....PLEASE!  WHY didnt LC win with it?  8 and 4  for 3, 4,5 yrs in a row is not winning with it.  It is merely getting by.  All that called for LC s head did so cause they were tired of 8 and 4 and being totalllllly  predictable.  Although RR has been very predictable in that sense.  MICHIGAN had WAY WAY better talent last yr and what happen?  We had a senior lead team and also those seniors were in the same program their whole careers and yet I dont remeber playing in the NC game last yr. 

 I am VERY disappointed with the year and yeah I do think tackling and holding onto the football is Coaching.  For that I am truly dishearted.  I have not seen the progress I thought we would have had by now.  And I dont care that we scored 42 pts against Purdue.  Our qb still has not progressed and constantly overthrows his receivers.  That is not progress.  Afterall Threet was suppose to be a big time throwing qb and his throws are not awe inspiring by any means. 

Does that mean I am all for running RR out of town?   NO!  not yet at least I am willing to see what becomes of his plan.  I still think he will learn and grow and so will the Team.   Lets see what happens when he has a full year of recruiting and teaching.  If we are at 2 and 7 this time next yr.......WELL then maybe I will be one of those calling for blood.  But for now I am behind RR and THE WOLVERINES.  
Hail To The Cotton Pickin Maize and Blue!


Bob The Greatest Wolverine Ufer

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